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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Better a stereotypical English teacher than some airhead wittering on about the beautiful architecture of prized government buildings, alcohol and the women. I am interested in what you thought NK does that would make the South envious?
Two things you need to know though is that you got through no filters, the entire population of 평양 is selected. Also considering that currently 100,000s of people are kept in gulags you do indeed have to visit them to understand anything. For example that nice marble subway might seem less wondrous after seeing the human cost of the regime. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
Better a stereotypical English teacher than some airhead wittering on about the beautiful architecture of prized government buildings, alcohol and the women. I am interested in what you thought NK does that would make the South envious?
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Insecure much?
| aq8knyus wrote: |
Two things you need to know though is that you got through no filters, the entire population of 평양 is selected.
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Population, but not visitors. I met many, many people from the countryside, despite my guides' best efforts.
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Also considering that currently 100,000s of people are kept in gulags you do indeed have to visit them to understand anything. For example that nice marble subway might seem less wondrous after seeing the human cost of the regime. |
No, it actually seems more amazing in a macabre way, in the same way the Pyramids of Egypt or the Great Wall of China were built at great cost to human life, just more modern. If you can't appreciate this sort of thing, which you obviously can't, then North Korea is definitely not for you. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Insecure? That�s your response? No seriously what does the North do better than the South?
Just more modern? A little bit yes, but we are getting somewhere; it's good for you to acknowledge that NK has the same regard for human life as regimes that existed millennia ago. I must say though I would probably feel differently about the pyramids if I could see the human cost.
I guess out of sight out of mind.
Also appreciate what exactly? The ever so terribly exciting world of people locked in the grip of oppression. |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bekinseki wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
Better a stereotypical English teacher than some airhead wittering on about the beautiful architecture of prized government buildings, alcohol and the women. I am interested in what you thought NK does that would make the South envious?
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Insecure much?
| aq8knyus wrote: |
Two things you need to know though is that you got through no filters, the entire population of 평양 is selected.
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Population, but not visitors. I met many, many people from the countryside, despite my guides' best efforts.
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Also considering that currently 100,000s of people are kept in gulags you do indeed have to visit them to understand anything. For example that nice marble subway might seem less wondrous after seeing the human cost of the regime. |
No, it actually seems more amazing in a macabre way, in the same way the Pyramids of Egypt or the Great Wall of China were built at great cost to human life, just more modern. If you can't appreciate this sort of thing, which you obviously can't, then North Korea is definitely not for you. |
See, here is the thing about those pyramids and the great wall, the governments who killed and repressed people to build them are longggg since gone. So when you go to see them, your not really doing any harm to the people who were involved. When you go to North Korea, you just paid the VERY GOVERNMENT who caused all that suffering for the right to look at their macabre subway. Maybe they will use their tourist dollars to disappear one of those country people you got to talk to for saying something inappropriate. But hey, it looks cool, the chicks are pretty and beer is cold. Why not go...... |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| See, here is the thing about those pyramids and the great wall, the governments who killed and repressed people to build them are longggg since gone. So when you go to see them, your not really doing any harm to the people who were involved |
That is just bad reasoning. You are still paying an oppresive government tourist dollars to see things in their land. Time doesn't mean much and you are really stretching it here.
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| not being allowed to beat your child = worse than living in North Korea. Those Norks have it so good. They have the "freedom" to beat their children. I wonder how those children feel about their parents exercising their "rights." |
Again someone doesn't know the difference between spanking and beating so they use the worst meaning of the latter to distort a form of good discipline.
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| Here your post turns ridiculous. Really? Two known cases compared to a gulag? You're saying living in the US without healthcare is the same as living in NK? |
You are really stretching it to avoid recognizing how bad America is getting. Here is a good example, Andy Griffith did some commercials for Obama's health care. They had to stop running them because of the hundreds of death threats he was receiving.
Just because there are no gulags doesn't mean that America is paradise.
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| Ok police states are all bad, but most people would still choose the lesser evil. I don't think you can compare the gulags in the NK to the situation in the US. I'd rather be poor in the US without health care rather than in a cold prison with forced labor under constant worry that a guard will smash my head in a rifle butt. It sucks to be the former but really? How are you gonna compare that to being in gulag? And no, the health care issue is not "swept under the rug." |
You do nice generalizations. Not everyonein the North is in a 'gulag'.
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| When did this happen? It would seem to me that the government is the one ignoring the constitution the most |
It was a few years ago, under Rehnquist. I can't find it rightnow but osme of the coming and recent decisions are interesting reads. This one in particular:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=xprnw.20110118.CL31921&show_article=1 |
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marsavalanche
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Location: where pretty lies perish
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| marsreloaded wrote: |
| definitely on my "to do list" when I head out of here |
heading to NK next year. you wanna come along brah? |
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| don't expect people to be swayed by your argument when you buttress it with an article by andrew breitbart. just the same as how i wouldn't expect people to take me seriously if i was posting moveon.org as the end all, be all to anything. |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| See, here is the thing about those pyramids and the great wall, the governments who killed and repressed people to build them are longggg since gone. So when you go to see them, your not really doing any harm to the people who were involved |
That is just bad reasoning. You are still paying an oppresive government tourist dollars to see things in their land. Time doesn't mean much and you are really stretching it here.
| Quote: |
| not being allowed to beat your child = worse than living in North Korea. Those Norks have it so good. They have the "freedom" to beat their children. I wonder how those children feel about their parents exercising their "rights." |
Again someone doesn't know the difference between spanking and beating so they use the worst meaning of the latter to distort a form of good discipline.
| Quote: |
| Here your post turns ridiculous. Really? Two known cases compared to a gulag? You're saying living in the US without healthcare is the same as living in NK? |
You are really stretching it to avoid recognizing how bad America is getting. Here is a good example, Andy Griffith did some commercials for Obama's health care. They had to stop running them because of the hundreds of death threats he was receiving.
Just because there are no gulags doesn't mean that America is paradise.
| Quote: |
| Ok police states are all bad, but most people would still choose the lesser evil. I don't think you can compare the gulags in the NK to the situation in the US. I'd rather be poor in the US without health care rather than in a cold prison with forced labor under constant worry that a guard will smash my head in a rifle butt. It sucks to be the former but really? How are you gonna compare that to being in gulag? And no, the health care issue is not "swept under the rug." |
You do nice generalizations. Not everyonein the North is in a 'gulag'.
| Quote: |
| When did this happen? It would seem to me that the government is the one ignoring the constitution the most |
It was a few years ago, under Rehnquist. I can't find it rightnow but osme of the coming and recent decisions are interesting reads. This one in particular:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=xprnw.20110118.CL31921&show_article=1 |
Alright, I dunno why I am doing this still but here we go again.
1. Bad reasoning? My point was the government who built the Pyramids is long since gone. If I got to Eygpt, I am not supporting the Pharaohs who built them! If someone wants to give me an impassioned argument why I shouldn't go to China do to human rights abuses, I probably could be easily convinced. I have refused to pay their silly visa fees this long.
2. Fine, beat your kid. You know whats best...
3. What? You want those people thrown in jail because they disagreed with Andy Griffith? I don't get what point your making here? Where is the government oppression?
4. There not all in gulags, but enough of them are....
http://freekorea.us/camps
Or you could just starve....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/05/AR2009030503613.html
5. Again, you can't grasp the differences between the two countries. The US has a problem with the government not following the constitution. Ok, well you can talk about it, file suit, run a website dedicated the the issue, become a professor and educate students, ect ect. You have recourse, you can freely promote change! The government in the North allows none of that, why can't you grasp the difference??!?! |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Calender has to be a troll. Death threats and gulags are the same thing. And NK is fine because not everybody is in one! |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| Calender has to be a troll. Death threats and gulags are the same thing. And NK is fine because not everybody is in one! |
Yea, I'm calling troll too. No one could have actually finished at a degree granting institution while thinking like this. |
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whiteshoes
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
Now I guess the ball is in your court. Got the nads to meet up with a defector and put your money where your mouth is or are you just going to walk away? Yea, thought so.
Actually don't PM me and talk to a defector. It's a red pill blue pill choice and I think you're secure in your belief that the U.S. is equally as evil as the rest of the world. Sleep well with that belief.
But if you really want to see the ugly truth then PM me, I'll set you up with several that will all tell you you will be buying the bullets of tyranny if you "tour" North Korea.
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I actually have a number of friends who are defectors. I've asked a couple of them if I should go there, and their main response was one of jealousy, as they'd like to be about to go see their parents. But they didn't object. It's my life and my money.
I'll ask some more tomorrow if you want. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Calender has to be a troll. Death threats and gulags are the same thing. And NK is fine because not everybody is in one |
| Quote: |
| Yea, I'm calling troll too. No one could have actually finished at a degree granting institution while thinking like this. |
Wrong on both counts. You guys just do not like to think that America is bad so you purposefully miss the points being made and distort them for your pleasure.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071466
| Quote: |
| In the far north of North Korea, in remote locations not far from the borders with China and Russia, a gulag not unlike the worst labor camps built by Mao and Stalin in the last century holds some 200,000 men, women and children accused of political crimes |
No one is saying that the gulags are good or North Korea is a fantastic place, but evil is evil no matter where you find it or what form it comes in. People get upset at the news of the gulags because they are well known, in one place and easy to find the atrocities that take place there.
Whereas in democratic countries, and other ones, where their evil deeds are easier to hide and done on a smaller and in a less conspicious manner, fewer people hear about them and if they do the shock is a lot less.
You should ask the minorities in your home country about how they are treated or the poor, the unacceptable and maybe your eyes will be opened to the horrors that take place under the radar.
With that said, there is nothing wrong with visiting countries deemed less than wonderful by democratic governments. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Calender has to be a troll. Death threats and gulags are the same thing. And NK is fine because not everybody is in one |
| Quote: |
| Yea, I'm calling troll too. No one could have actually finished at a degree granting institution while thinking like this. |
Wrong on both counts. You guys just do not like to think that America is bad so you purposefully miss the points being made and distort them for your pleasure.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071466
| Quote: |
| In the far north of North Korea, in remote locations not far from the borders with China and Russia, a gulag not unlike the worst labor camps built by Mao and Stalin in the last century holds some 200,000 men, women and children accused of political crimes |
No one is saying that the gulags are good or North Korea is a fantastic place, but evil is evil no matter where you find it or what form it comes in. People get upset at the news of the gulags because they are well known, in one place and easy to find the atrocities that take place there.
Whereas in democratic countries, and other ones, where their evil deeds are easier to hide and done on a smaller and in a less conspicious manner, fewer people hear about them and if they do the shock is a lot less.
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Are you a real person? It is easier for a democratic country with a free press to hide wrongdoing than a totalitarian regime with complete control over all printed media and political parties? The only way we even know what's going on in NK is from the deserters who report it. Whereas politicians regularly have their careers ruined in democratic countries over small scandal.
| calendar wrote: |
You should ask the minorities in your home country about how they are treated or the poor, the unacceptable and maybe your eyes will be opened to the horrors that take place under the radar.
| calendar wrote: |
And I'd still be willing to bet they all would prefer their current situation over living in North Korea.
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With that said, there is nothing wrong with visiting countries deemed less than wonderful by democratic governments. |
It's like you have a murderer and a guy who stole a pack of gum. You don't want to meet either of them because they're both criminals.
No one was saying the US doesn't have its problems, but these problems are laughable compared to NK. The fact that you even put the two in the same category is what none of us can wrap our heads around and strongly implies a deficiency on your critical thinking abilities.
To simplify it into clear points:
* People in the United States have a significantly higher standard of living and amount of freedom than those in DPRK.
* The money from NK tours go directly to the regime, a regime that is directly responsible for the condition of the country and its people.
Are you really disputing either of these? |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| It is easier for a democratic country with a free press to hide wrongdoing than a totalitarian regime with complete control over all printed media and political parties? |
What free press? In America alone, there are hundreds of thousands of media outlets ranging from radio to magazines to t.v. stations to radio stations. Guess how many corporations own them all? About 6. There is a good book out that documents this 'free press' you talk about and how it has declined to an almost monopoly. It has sveral editions and each time it is reprinted the number of corporations owning media outlets have shrunk.
Stop using adjectives that do not apply anymore.
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The only way we even know what's going on in NK is from the deserters who report it. Whereas politicians regularly have their careers ruined in democratic countries over small scandal.
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I am curious, are you Republican?
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| No one was saying the US doesn't have its problems, but these problems are laughable compared to NK |
Really. So over 40,000,000 people without health care is a laughable problem to you. Good-bye.
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| My point was the government who built the Pyramids is long since gone. |
No one knows how the people who worked on the Pyramids were treated. We do have som erecords and they indicate that they got sick days or days off for family emergencies. They may not have been slaves after all. We also do not know how they were built. The theories abound.
Though you may not be supporting the ancient Pharaohs you would be supporting whatever government is in power today and they may be ruthless, so your reasoning is very bad.
Please learn the difference between the words 'spanking' and 'beating'. Stop distorting a proper discipline to fit your personal preferences.
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| You want those people thrown in jail because they disagreed with Andy Griffith |
Now you are changing what I wrote and missed the point on purpose. I have a theory that gets more and more evidence each day and that is most North American people have no comprehension or concept of what an 'example' is or its purpose.
There are approx. 200,000 people in gulags in NK while in America the numbers are more astounding:
http://legalmomentum.typepad.com/blog/2009/11/number-of-starving-americans-increases.html
http://www.pbs.org/now/society/prisons3.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html
These are just examples to show how a person's personal thinking influences them. You hate NK so their acts towards others are magnified, while you love America and its acts towards others are minimilized.
[/quote] You have recourse
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Do you? Given the American legal system that recourse may take years as it winds its way through the courts making it worthless once it is finally decided.
i think you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look beyond the surface and not be swayed by words like 'free press', 'democratic', 'freedom' etc. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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