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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Hogwans, public schools and private tutors do not get paid for prep work. The standard contract makes that clear. Many contracts contain mandatory office hours as part of your monthly salary, and you may or may not be able to complete your prep work during those hours, but no teaching contract I've ever seen includes pay for any prep time (beyond those office hours for those who have them).
In the OP's case, it would depend on the contract. F visa or not, if the contract pays for class time and does not mention payment for prep time, then the time you need to prepare for class, grade papers or whatever is unpaid. If you have required office hours, these are best viewed as unpaid prep hours and if you need more time, those are additional unpaid prep hours. This is standard for teachers all over the world who work extra hours at school or at home with no extra pay.
The OP is on an F visa and can quit and move on, but the OP is not correct in thinking that he has any right to payment for this prep time. Post the contract and show us where you get paid for this. It could be a bad deal, it could be the pay for the teaching hours seems too low for the amount of free prep time required, but I doubt that there is any contract clause requiring pay for this time. |
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blm
Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Pa Jan Jo A Hamnida wrote: |
| I wonder if you badmouth E2s as a way to gain credibility amongst the people whose approval you seek? |
It was a joke. |
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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Hogwans, public schools and private tutors do not get paid for prep work. |
Oh don't be ridiculous! I worked at a public school for two years. Those four hours of deskwarming every day, for five days a week, are unpaid? I don't think so.
| ontheway wrote: |
| F visa or not, if the contract pays for class time and does not mention payment for prep time, then the time you need to prepare for class, grade papers or whatever is unpaid. |
The contract does mention prep time, but does not say whether or not the prep time is paid. Silly me for assuming that I would be paid for working. But you are right, for two hours of prep a week, with eight hours of teaching, my hourly pay did fall to an unacceptably low level. It works out to six dollars less per hour. As a greedy American, I found this unacceptable.
Over the course of the last day this woman has been harassing my wife and I with nasty texts, phone calls, and various empty threats. She's almost forty years old but at one point her drunk parents joined in the fray and started yelling at my wife over the phone about how they own another hagwon and speak English and you can't do this to us! Does anyone think that they have a legal case against us? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| Hogwans, public schools and private tutors do not get paid for prep work. |
Oh don't be ridiculous! I worked at a public school for two years. Those four hours of deskwarming every day, for five days a week, are unpaid? I don't think so.
| ontheway wrote: |
| F visa or not, if the contract pays for class time and does not mention payment for prep time, then the time you need to prepare for class, grade papers or whatever is unpaid. |
The contract does mention prep time, but does not say whether or not the prep time is paid. Silly me for assuming that I would be paid for working. But you are right, for two hours of prep a week, with eight hours of teaching, my hourly pay did fall to an unacceptably low level. It works out to six dollars less per hour. As a greedy American, I found this unacceptable.
Over the course of the last day this woman has been harassing my wife and I with nasty texts, phone calls, and various empty threats. She's almost forty years old but at one point her drunk parents joined in the fray and started yelling at my wife over the phone about how they own another hagwon and speak English and you can't do this to us! Does anyone think that they have a legal case against us? |
No. If she's running an illegal hakwon she has more to lose than you do.
The next time she calls you to utter threats, tell her that you are reporting her for running an illegal hakwon and then hang up. Let her stew for a while. Hopefully she will realize that there's nothing to be gained for this and back off. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand.
Why is she sending threatening texts and stuff? You told her you were quitting?
I personally would just walk away from any "part-time" gig that treated me that way, but I don't know all the circumstances.
Why would you even have a contract?
Most tutors that I know just worked on verbal agreements and set their own rules from the get go.
But perhaps I'm behind the times. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| Hogwans, public schools and private tutors do not get paid for prep work. |
Oh don't be ridiculous! I worked at a public school for two years. Those four hours of deskwarming every day, for five days a week, are unpaid? I don't think so. |
You are being ridiculous. Get out your old public school contract. You were paid a salary. You were expected to teach up to a certain number of hours after which you could refuse or get paid for overtime for classes taught.
Now, look closer. Does it ever say that your pay is so much for teaching and so much for sitting at your desk? Does it say you must put in up to so many hours of desk time?
No. Of course not. Your hours spent at the school are specified. Your hours of teaching are specified. But, if you spent your extra time at the school in meetings or playing computer games or reading the paper in the lounge it would come out the same.
If you have overtime classes they do not increase your desk time. In fact, since you have the same number of hours in the school you have fewer desk hours. Yet, you would think that your required prep time would increase. But you have fewer desk hours to do it in. And if you do some extra prep work before or after school, or at home, there is no additional pay.
(Now, yes, there is some clause about some minor amount of extra pay for required extra project time in the office. But that is not standard class preparation. You are not likely to ever be asked to do that kind of work or receive that extra few thousand won per hour.)
You see. Your prep time has a value of zero at the public schools. You are paid for teaching. Zero for prep. That's because different teachers need different amounts of preparation. Some work efficiently and some waste time. So, teachers are paid for teaching not for preparation. SOP at schools around the world. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| sublunari wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| F visa or not, if the contract pays for class time and does not mention payment for prep time, then the time you need to prepare for class, grade papers or whatever is unpaid. |
The contract does mention prep time, but does not say whether or not the prep time is paid. Silly me for assuming that I would be paid for working. But you are right, for two hours of prep a week, with eight hours of teaching, my hourly pay did fall to an unacceptably low level. It works out to six dollars less per hour. As a greedy American, I found this unacceptable.
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So, you were working 2 hours per day, 4 days per week. You were getting $30 per hour and expected to need no preparation time. Your weekly salary was $240. But, the idea of working an extra 30 minutes per day to get ready for class was too much, so you quit. $240 spread over 10 hours comes to $24 per hour and that's not enough for you.
(Since you mentioned dollars, I used that, although I suspect you meant that you would make 6,000 won less per hour, not $6.)
So, 4 jobs like this one would come to 40 hours per week and you would make either $960 per week or, more likely, 960,000 won per week - over 4 million per month on an annual basis with the extra 4 weeks in a year.
There are quite a few teachers here who would trade for a deal like the one you blew off. |
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nw25th
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ontheway"]
| sublunari wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| F visa or not, if the contract pays for class time and does not mention payment for prep time, then the time you need to prepare for class, grade papers or whatever is unpaid. |
The contract does mention prep time, but does not say whether or not the prep time is paid. Silly me for assuming that I would be paid for working. But you are right, for two hours of prep a week, with eight hours of teaching, my hourly pay did fall to an unacceptably low level. It works out to six dollars less per hour. As a greedy American, I found this unacceptable.
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So, you were working 2 hours per day, 4 days per week. You were getting $30 per hour and expected to need no preparation time. Your weekly salary was $240. But, the idea of working an extra 30 minutes per day to get ready for class was too much, so you quit. $240 spread over 10 hours comes to $24 per hour and that's not enough for you.
(Since you mentioned dollars, I used that, although I suspect you meant that you would make 6,000 won less per hour, not $6.)
So, 4 jobs like this one would come to 40 hours per week and you would make either $960 per week or, more likely, 960,000 won per week - over 4 million per month on an annual basis with the extra 4 weeks in a year.
There are quite a few teachers here who would trade for a deal like the one you blew off.[/quote
$24/hour isn't enough for me. My time is more valuable than that. You're not taking into account possible travel time and traveling expenses. I dumped lessons for $50 just because the travel time and costs didn't satisfy me. There's always other PT jobs. |
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Italy37612
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Setaro wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| No, she never said that she would because I was too idiotic to ask; I had assumed that I would be paid for all of my time at work, rather than just most of it, but I suppose that is a silly American conceit. I won't be making the same mistake again. |
Yeah, I guessed you were American, after you said you're thinking about threatening to report this woman over half an hours pay. Jesus Christ man, you're certainly not doing anything to stifle the stereotype that Americans are greedy money grabbers/obsessed with $$$. |
Congratulations, you made yourself look look a total idiot in two sentences Setaro. You win the dumbass award of the week. |
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nw25th
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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So, you were working 2 hours per day, 4 days per week. You were getting $30 per hour and expected to need no preparation time. Your weekly salary was $240. But, the idea of working an extra 30 minutes per day to get ready for class was too much, so you quit. $240 spread over 10 hours comes to $24 per hour and that's not enough for you.
(Since you mentioned dollars, I used that, although I suspect you meant that you would make 6,000 won less per hour, not $6.)
So, 4 jobs like this one would come to 40 hours per week and you would make either $960 per week or, more likely, 960,000 won per week - over 4 million per month on an annual basis with the extra 4 weeks in a year.
There are quite a few teachers here who would trade for a deal like the one you blew off.[/quote
$24/hour isn't enough for me. My time is more valuable than that. You're not taking into account possible travel time and traveling expenses. I dumped lessons for $50 just because the travel time and costs didn't satisfy me. There's always other PT jobs. |
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sublunari
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| nw25th wrote: |
| So, you were working 2 hours per day, 4 days per week... |
Nice job on the math! I was waiting for someone to figure out my salary. But although you're basically correct about the numbers, there's a few other things you haven't taken into consideration. For one, the job was in the middle of the afternoon, four days a week, which made it practically impossible to find other jobs of a similar nature, because there are very few part time gigs in the morning or at night.
The average going salary for private tutors is also fifty dollars an hour, and she was paying me less than half that amount for just as much, if not more, work. The students there were great but actually an extraordinary challenge; if any of you have taught small groups of very young kids who speak English above an intermediate level, you may know what I mean. I'm not sure if there's a more exhausting demographic.
(although this will not work in my favor, I should mention that traveling time was about fifteen minutes there and back on the subway...)
But hey, if you live in Busan and you want this gig, be my guest. She posted an ad on Korea bridge offering an extra five dollars an hour, which is kind of bogus, because she could have just paid me my salary and kept me on at that place, rather than tearing her hair out over finding a new teacher. Then she took the ad down again for unknown reasons. But I can still hook you up with this nutcase, if you want. I believe she's gone through about a dozen other English teachers, and probably for similar reasons; i.e., a flat-out refusal to pay for services rendered.
| ontheway wrote: |
| You are being ridiculous. |
No, you are being ridiculous! The contract says forty hours a week, with no more than twenty-two hours for teaching. The remaining eighteen hours are left to the winds. The contract does not specify whether we are being paid for teaching or for twiddling our fingers at our desks, so I have no choice but to assume that they pay for the whole deal, since slavery is illegal here and eighteen hours of unpaid involuntary work every week smacks more of antebellum laws than modern ones. The fact that they would pay us overtime for extra preparation (no matter how trivial the amount) also implies that we are being paid for that prep time to begin with.
| some waygug-in wrote: |
| I don't understand... |
We have walked away from this person for good, because obviously if an employer explodes after you express a concern about your pay, it's probably a good idea to walk away, if you can afford to do so. After the first day she stopped sending us nasty texts and phone calls. I'm not really sure why she gave us a contract either, since it hasn't really done either party much good in this dispute.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
If she's running an illegal hakwon she has more to lose than you do.
The next time she calls you to utter threats, tell her that you are reporting her for running an illegal hakwon and then hang up. Let her stew for a while. Hopefully she will realize that there's nothing to be gained for this and back off. |
We were thinking the same thing. Her school is illegal but it's kind of an open secret; there's a large English sign in the window of her apartment with her phone number provided underneath. But at this point the school may be kaput, since she posted and then took down her job ad in a matter of hours; this is probably not the first time a foreign teacher has walked away from her, and the parents of the kids may be getting tired of the chaos at that place, or something. Who knows. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: |
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I think you've made the right decision, by the way. Sounds like someone I knew once.
Was she a part-time teacher living near Busan National University? |
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