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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| calendar wrote: |
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| CentralCali - YOU ROCK! Go man GO |
If you and Cali hate Korea so much, why are you two even here?  |
I love how criticism of aspects of a country = hate for you. |
Your 'criticizers' (haters) of Korea remind me of the girl who claimed she loved her boyfriend but nothing he did was ever good enough and she kept pointing things out that needed to be changed.
You wouldn't put up with a girl lik ethat as you would soon be complaining that she didn't love nor accepted you for who you really are. The same applies to your attitude of 'criticizing aspects of Korea'. You do not love Korea or Koreans and do not accept them for the way they are. Soon you will get the boot like any boyfriend would do to that girl.
If you do not love Korea and accept them the way they are, you hate them thus 'criticisms' = hatred for. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I like Korea. It's a bit rough around the edges, and has a fair number of problems to deal with. It can be immensely infuriating and baffling sometimes, but I don't hate it. You can't pretend there's nothing wrong because that's worse than saying nothing. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| You can't pretend there's nothing wrong because that's worse than saying nothing. |
Who says I pretend there is nothing wrong? You just have to put things in the right perspective first and realize your opinion doesn't over-rule the Koreans ' and their desire to run their country their way.
Name me one western country that is perfect and gives you the right to tell the Koreans to change.
Last edited by calendar on Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| calendar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| CentralCali - YOU ROCK! Go man GO |
If you and Cali hate Korea so much, why are you two even here? |
I love how criticism of aspects of a country = hate for you. |
Your 'criticizers' (haters) of Korea remind me of the girl who claimed she loved her boyfriend but nothing he did was ever good enough and she kept pointing things out that needed to be changed.
You wouldn't put up with a girl lik ethat as you would soon be complaining that she didn't love nor accepted you for who you really are. The same applies to your attitude of 'criticizing aspects of Korea'. You do not love Korea or Koreans and do not accept them for the way they are. Soon you will get the boot like any boyfriend would do to that girl.
If you do not love Korea and accept them the way they are, you hate them thus 'criticisms' = hatred for. |
You are insane.
I dislike the fact that my girlfriend is freakishly afraid of things like pigeons and butterflies. By your logic I should give her the boot because she doesn't think pigeons are harmless and butterflies are cute like I do.
Yeah...no thanks.
Oh, I get it. When someone like CentralCali gets upset about what some idiot vomits all over the editorial section of a newspaper, and this contributor happens to be Korean, CentralCali obviously hates Korea and needs to flee post-haste.
What a [Mod Edit] I'll take 100 each of TUM AND PatrickGHBusan over the kind of mind-numbing 1984 Thinkpol logic you'd have enstated. |
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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You are insane.
I dislike the fact that my girlfriend is freakishly afraid of things like pigeons and butterflies. By your logic I should give her the boot because she doesn't think pigeons are harmless and butterflies are cute like I do |
No but you showed that you di dnot grasp or comprehend what was written and placed your interpretation upon what I wrote then reacted to that false idea.
Read it again and it has nothing to do with fears.
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| When someone like CentralCali gets upset about what some idiot vomits all over the editorial section of a newspaper, and this contributor happens to be Korean, CentralCali obviously hates Korea and needs to flee post-haste |
There was nothing wrong with Mr. Shin's article except that it was poorly written. You all take offense because he used westerners as his examples but if you all would calm down and not let your emotional over-reactions do your thinking for you you would realize that he was within his rights and was not tearing down Fts. He was using examples but you all are too blind to see that
Face it he was kind when he mentioned a couple good westerners. He could have used Koreans there and all bad westerners. You people are way too sensitive.
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| What a load of crap. I'll take 100 each of TUM AND PatrickGHBusan over the kind of mind-numbing 1984 Thinkpol logic you'd have enstated |
 You really missed the point of what I wrote and it seems that the truth does hurt. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
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| You can't pretend there's nothing wrong because that's worse than saying nothing. |
Who says I pretend there is nothing wrong? You just have to put things in the right perspective first and realize your opinion doesn't over-rule the Koreans ' and their desire to run their country their way.
Name me one western country that is perfect and gives you the right to tell the Koreans to change. |
we all understand the cultural relativism idea, but sometimes wrong is wrong no matter where you are. Of course, that really refers to serious issues like crime, racism, etc. You don't need to have a hate on for korea to see the xenophobia and ethnocentric attitudes. Be reasonable in your arguments. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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calendar: The article didn't bother me at all, well aside from being very poorly written. So while you're doing the town crier bit about being misunderstood, you might do well to pay a little attention yourself to what others are saying.
I'm not defending CentralCali's views of the subject of the article. I'm defending his right to complain about it without it turning into him hating Korea and having it be suggested that he should leave the country due to his misgivings.
Whatever, you're taking the same approach that Steelrails tends to do with me, quote what I say but go off on his own agenda toward the thread in general.
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| You really missed the point of what I wrote and it seems that the truth does hurt. |
Hah, yeah, I'm so mortified by the truth that you've exposed me to.  |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
we all understand the cultural relativism idea, but sometimes wrong is wrong no matter where you are. Of course, that really refers to serious issues like crime, racism, etc. You don't need to have a hate on for korea to see the xenophobia and ethnocentric attitudes. Be reasonable in your arguments. |
Every country has xenophobic attitudes and behavior as well as ethnocentric attitudes. But the problem comes in when you extrapolate those to all 50,000,000 Koreans, most of whom none of you have ever met nor can say such bias exists in them.
I am trying to be reasonable, I do not think that you can find one accusation against the Korean people that is absent in a western country (any of them).
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| I'm defending his right to complain about it without it turning into him hating Korea and having it be suggested that he should leave the country due to his misgivings. |
And I said he went over the top and some people agreed with me. Sure he can complain but I also pointed out that his 'righteous indignation' was absent when westerners did the same thing as Mr. Shin.
I do not think it was or is wise to submit that letter for it will do more harm than good but he is free to send it in if he wants.
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| Whatever, you're taking the same approach that Steelrails tends to do with me, quote what I say but go off on his own agenda toward the thread in general |
Didn't you do that with my example where you missed the point entirely?
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| without it turning into him hating Korea and having it be suggested that he should leave the country due to his misgivings |
If this was a solitary incident by one FT then you would be correct. I have read Cali's comments for years, as well as many other posters, on this forum and it is not an isolated incident but a running theme with them. I am not coming to my conclusion based upon 1 lone badly written letter and a few comments in support. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| calendar wrote: |
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| Whatever, you're taking the same approach that Steelrails tends to do with me, quote what I say but go off on his own agenda toward the thread in general |
Didn't you do that with my example where you missed the point entirely? |
Fair enough, I rushed over your example and misinterpreted it. However, rather than think it's insane, I instead think it is not very analogous. A girlfriend and a country are not the same thing, the country can't sit down and say to itself "Hey, this guy's a jerk who hates me, I'm going to dump him."
Unless you're going with the concept that us whining and moaning enough is going to lead to a tipping point where Koreans decide they no longer want to allow Westerners to work in the country. I think that's unrealistic but the new immigration procedures do show an unwillingness to let just anyone work here. That said, those regulations came into play partly because of specific high-profile cases and partly because people were circumventing the initial CBC system (and the posts here may have been noticed).
But at the heart of the matter is that you expect people to profess an appreciation of Korea. Hopefully, you extrapolate this to expatriates in general, and give the same lecture to Koreans in L.A. or Pakistanis in England.
It's obvious we have different levels of tolerance for "haters" and different approaches - I stopped posting here for some time partly due to the constant whining - but my main concerns when I go up against an "apologist" are:
A) making sure the "apologist" treats the "hater" with some basic respect; sometimes the case isn't cut and dry, sometimes it's just nice to say mean things in a nice way, sometimes all that is requested is information and nothing more
B) ensuring that the "apologist" isn't throwing all 1 million foreigners living into Korea into the same boat
I feel like you're doing the latter here. So I said something.
| Quote: |
| If this was a solitary incident by one FT then you would be correct. I have read Cali's comments for years, as well as many other posters, on this forum and it is not an isolated incident but a running theme with them. I am not coming to my conclusion based upon 1 lone badly written letter and a few comments in support. |
I would certainly hope not. Nevertheless, it does come off like you're doing the very thing you accuse FTs of doing, lumping the whole group together. I mean, if I chime in and you assume I'm hating on Koreans when earlier in this same thread I said essentially the same thing (poorly written, not worth a monstrous letter in retort) as I did in my last post, you're being a bit reactive.
And I do apologize for the insane comment earlier. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
| calendar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You can't pretend there's nothing wrong because that's worse than saying nothing. |
Who says I pretend there is nothing wrong? You just have to put things in the right perspective first and realize your opinion doesn't over-rule the Koreans ' and their desire to run their country their way.
Name me one western country that is perfect and gives you the right to tell the Koreans to change. |
we all understand the cultural relativism idea, but sometimes wrong is wrong no matter where you are. Of course, that really refers to serious issues like crime, racism, etc. You don't need to have a hate on for korea to see the xenophobia and ethnocentric attitudes. Be reasonable in your arguments. |
Careful, but if you want to get into an argument about crimes against humanity and the need to berate people from a culture, you might want to think long and hard about that.
Yeah, you think the cultural relativism game excuses what happens in cultures like Koreas. It's a two-way street.
The idea is you could fingerpoint at Korean Racism and then some Korean in London calls English culture barbaric because they are beaten over wearing a certain soccer jersey.
I think the better course is not to call either culture barbaric. Let the people within the culture fight for progress. That is their job. Think the Prime Directive.
You know how easily you see Koreans' warts? That's how easily some see yours. Yes, you have warts too. And it does seem that people here get pretty upset when Koreans try to point out their warts.
And I think it's pretty flippant to dismiss what so-called advanced cultures have done, from the year 1500 up until say about 1964-2011, depending on which country has been invaded recently (within the lifetime of a huge chunk of the population) to minorities and say, "Oh but we've changed now, what we did to rise to our position of preeminence you shouldn't do."
It's a true message, but an amoral realist might look at the picture and draw a different conclusion. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| I would never deny any the above charges about England, but how is it relevant to Korea? The OP was complaining about something that happened here, not back home. I find it so annoying whenever some one airs a grievance about living HERE and the apologists compares it to a western country. |
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calendar
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Location: being a hermit
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| I instead think it is not very analogous. A girlfriend and a country are not the same thing, the country can't sit down and say to itself "Hey, this guy's a jerk who hates me, I'm going to dump him." |
Sure it is. You just do not want to admit to it and realize that that is what you and many others are actually doing in this country.
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Unless you're going with the concept that us whining and moaning enough is going to lead to a tipping point where Koreans decide they no longer want to allow Westerners to work in the country. I think that's unrealistic but the new immigration procedures do show an unwillingness to let just anyone work here. That said, those regulations came into play partly because of specific high-profile cases and partly because people were circumventing the initial CBC system (and the posts here may have been noticed).
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Maybe not all foreigners but certainly English teachers they would. its a good excuse to shift the expenditure to their own people and stop paying double to have the job done.
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| But at the heart of the matter is that you expect people to profess an appreciation of Korea |
No, i want them to realize that the Koreans are not different from any other country and what they complain about here is done by their uncle Joe or Pastor or neighbor. etc. There is very little to complain about in this country and if you (general usage) do complain, don't get upset when someone (even Koreans) points out to you that the people in your country do the exact same thing.
I had a job in a Western country once that made me stand for 8 hours without a break, even though the doctor said I had to sit. Most of yo are too young to know about these things and think Korea has a monopoly on them.
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| I feel like you're doing the latter here. So I said something. |
First off, I just try to have a discussion and try to just discuss without getting offensive. Not always successful but then I take a lot of heat, even from you in another thread, when I say things that people do not like and is not part of the majority 'accepted' opinion.
Second, I do not try to lump all foreigners into one group. i go from experience but sometimes I do not make it clear enough.
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| it does come off like you're doing the very thing you accuse FTs of doing, lumping the whole group together |
Now you know what the Koreans feel like when FTs lump all 50,000,000 into a crime 1-10 committed. FTs come on here with 1 bad experience form 1 hagwon owner and they condemn all of Korea. it works both ways.
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| And I do apologize for the insane comment earlier. |
No worries at least you have some integrity, which is rare on this board. Keep in mind, when I discuss I discuss from my point of view and I will not agree with everyone, sometimes no one. I look at things quite differently than most.
Last edited by calendar on Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
| I would never deny any the above charges about England, but how is it relevant to Korea? The OP was complaining about something that happened here, not back home. I find it so annoying whenever some one airs a grievance about living HERE and the apologists compares it to a western country. |
Maybe the apologists wouldn't say anything if that were ALL the person venting was doing. But 90% of the time it's either said or implied that this only happens in Korea and that comes off as just so ignorant and misinformed that the apologists can't resist their teaching side coming to the fore and educating the poster. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| I would never deny any the above charges about England, but how is it relevant to Korea? The OP was complaining about something that happened here, not back home. I find it so annoying whenever some one airs a grievance about living HERE and the apologists compares it to a western country. |
Maybe the apologists wouldn't say anything if that were ALL the person venting was doing. But 90% of the time it's either said or implied that this only happens in Korea and that comes off as just so ignorant and misinformed that the apologists can't resist their teaching side coming to the fore and educating the poster. |
That right there (in bold) is dead on target for many of the rant threads that crop up on here.
It should be added that many of these venting threads go a lot further than the article quoted in this very thread.....if half of what is being said on here about Koreans was said by a random korean about foreigners the outrage would be out of this world. Heck just off the top of my head, Koreans on here have been called members of an attarded culture, barbaric, without class, compared to farm animals in numerous food and manners threads, monolithical and devoid of creative thought...the list goes on and on. Then you get the always amusing "an ajuma did this to me...KOREANS are...".
Some people just do not like these racist and prejudiced generalisations....about any group of people. How odd is that.... |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Wrong is still Wrong. You cannot justify doing something wrong just because people in every country throughout the world do things wrong. Just keep it on an individual level and not blame all people of a country. Mr. Shin did this...is correct. Koreans do this...wrong. You keep that simple pattern and you can gripe all you want. |
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