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Chet Wautlands
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Setaro wrote: |
| it's in fact the most difficult language I've studied, barring Russian. |
Really? Everyone I know who has studied both Korean and Russian has said Korean is more difficult.
| Setaro wrote: |
| No one is arguing that KOREAN is an easy language to learn |
Not true. Chet Wautlands and many others on this board claim Korean is an easy language to learn. @@ |
Wow, this might be the first time my name has ever come up in a thread that I haven't posted in. I'm becoming a regular!
I didn't say Korean was easy. I said that thinking that "Korean is hard" is a useless and ultimately meaningless thought. You have managed to make learning Korean a much more daunting task than it really is. You've spent a lot of time reading about how hard Korean is, but if you spent that time with a text book, you'd get better results.
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Friends, no one really cares if you can read hangeul or not. If you have lived here a long time and can't read it because you haven't put in the effort (I've never heard of anyone trying and failing), then that's pathetic. We may as well tell first graders that not everyone needs to learn basic addition.
Also, I strongly encourage any foreigner living here to learn some Korean because it has enhanced my life so much. It's not as hard as people make it out to be. It really isn't. And no, I'm not a gifted language learner. I just spent time learning the language. |
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Daelim
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Setaro wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Setaro wrote: |
A lot of people seem confused about what the OP was saying.
There is a big difference between being able to recognise the meaning of korean letters (Hangeul) as regards the SOUNDS they represent, and being able to read Korean in regards to being able to understand the actual korean words.
Being able to read Korean to say, the level of reading a newspaper, takes many many months, probably years of dedicated study. Even if someone who has lived in Korea for many years, they may not have the time (or desire/need/whatever) to study Korean to that level. For them, I save my ire.
HOWEVER, learning to read Hangeul, that is to recognise what sounds they represent, and thus be able to read out an address, a name, a product, a menu etc, takes literally 2 hours.
If someone who has been here more than a week can't read Hangeul, then they are a cretin. If the reason is they can't be bothered, or the reason is they tried and gave up (on the world's simplest written script), then they are a cretin. No excuses. Shut up apologists. Those people are cretins. |
I disagree with those people that say you can read 2 Hangeul in 2 hours.
That's for some people. It doesn't apply to all foreigners learning Korean. Some people might master Russian faster than they might master Korean. Reading a newspaper in a non-Indo-European language in just several months can be a tall order for some who don't have so much time.
To illustrate an example, one foreigner on a site who seems educated was frustrated that things weren't sticking with him when it came to Korean. I told him to not give up. Some of you folks are judging everyone and using the same brush to characterize everyone who isn't as good at you at Hangeul.
I can read menus, signs, names, my students names, greetings, some dialogues. That's about the extent of it. Without being in a class, it's hard for people to learn. |
Again you seem to not understand this debate. You can read Hangeul. That's all this thread is about. I can also read Hangeul. I can not, however, read Korean very well. I know only a small vocabulary. I struggle to understand books written for 5 year olds. I can read them out loud perfectly, because I can read Hangeul, though I do not know what the words mean. If you can read menus, signs, names etc. YOU CAN READ HANGEUL.
This thread is about people who have been in Korea for years, yet can't read Hangeul. Hangeul is letters, it's an alphabet, IT IS NOT A LANGUAGE. And it takes less than 2 hours to learn, with a good guide/textbook.
No one is arguing that KOREAN is an easy language to learn, it is not, it's in fact the most difficult language I've studied, barring Russian. However, Hangeul is an absolute piece of cake to learn (sure there are some things going on such as consonants effecting neighbouring consonants and changing the pronunciation, but still, learning Korean letters takes less than 1 afternoon).
And people who can't or won't learn are cretins. Especially if they've been here more than a few weeks, or, god forbid, YEARS. |
Sheeet I'm a cretin now too! haha. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Daelim, you are 왕따.
(Since you can't read hanguel, you have no idea what I just said about you. @@) |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| A lot of the posts on here remind me of the last time this topic came up when I likened the pro-learning Hangul/Korean mob to the healthy kids in the gym surrounding the fat kid who can't climb the rope, thinking they can bully him into doing it. The the fat kid kind of knows the reason why he can't do it is because he's fat and lazy and doesn't really see the relevance of climbing a rope and his interests lie in other areas, but the other kids keep on at him saying it's easy and anyone can do it and calling him pathetic and a cretin and an idiot and all sorts. And the more they say this, the more reluctant he is to do it because in the end his instinct is to react against people who behave in this way. And in a sense he's cutting off his nose to spite his face because getting a bit fitter will improve his life a bit, but at the same time you can understand his behaviour. |
I think it's also the ones who know Korean and who learnt it easily judging those who haven't learnt as much Korean. I can understand that. They're insisting that everyone must learn Hangeul in 2 hours or there is something wrong with them. I have taught several languages, and I've met people who found Arabic easier than French when it shouldn't be that way since they're English speakers, and there are so many cognates. It depends also on how people perceive the differences as Hangeul is so different from our letters in terms of the concept and ideas. Each letter is supposed to be very different than the other in English.
The same applies to Russian and Greek. I have a problem who insists that there is something wrong with someone's intelligence if they didn't learn Hangeul in one afternoon like they did. Reading Greek or Russian comes easily to me even if I don't know always know what I'm reading.
I could pronounce anything in Greek like a native Greek person. However, since Greek is only spoken in Greece, I didn't try to become fluent. I understand Greek more than Korean, though. I takes a lot more work to learn Korean.
I think many expats don't want to learn Korean for many different reasons, but the cultural distance between their respective cultures and Korean culture possibly plays a role in not learning even if they don't admit it. They end up using their Westerness as a psychological shield and that includes not learning Korean. That applies to some. There is a certain risk wading into a culture very different from your own. You have to be aggressive and go out their and throw yourself into the culture, go up to Koreans, push and push yourself to learn no matter how hard it is.
Hangeul seems like a piece of cake to me now when I came back for some reason. |
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Kimchifart
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Long timers that are illiterate |
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| myenglishisno wrote: |
Met a few teachers the other night who've been here for more than a few years. We got talking and got on the topic of Korean. All of them divulged that they couldn't read a word of 한글 nor were they great at speaking.
My Korean is far from perfect but I have been studying since I've been here. My spoken Korean should be much better but anything to do with written Korean and I'm doing pretty well. I keep a journal in Korean, talk to Korean friends online in Korean, as well as read the news and so on. I actually thought I was well behind the average for people that have been there as long as I.
Anyway, not counting the people who have been here for fewer than two years, I keep running into long-timers who can't read 한글. Either they can't read it or they can barely read it. Sometimes they're proud of it like it is some kind of accomplishment and other times they hide it for awhile and it takes awhile to piece it together.
Part of me would write a person off for this as in the same way, I'd write someone off for believing that pro-wrestling was real. Then again, some of them seem like perfectly intelligent, normal people. That and it seems like more than 60% (rough estimate) of the long timers (2+ years) I meet can't read.
Is there any excuse for this? Why can't you read (assuming you can't)? |
This is the typical sort of post I've come to expect from the manic, honeymooned K-noob demographic. |
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Setaro
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| In this thread: many cretins who can't read the world's simplest writing system, and hide their ignorance behind a veil of 'I don't need to learn'. I bet they still go to Korean restaurants and ask for a fork because they haven't bothered to learn how to use chopsticks after years in Korea. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Setaro wrote: |
| In this thread: many cretins who can't read the world's simplest writing system, and hide their ignorance behind a veil of 'I don't need to learn'. I bet they still go to Korean restaurants and ask for a fork because they haven't bothered to learn how to use chopsticks after years in Korea. |
Dude, what's it to you? Do you really need such a boost to your self-esteem to trash people who are not learning Korean? I am learning Korean, but one of my favorite workmates doesn't care, and he is a wonderful human being. Maybe, you could learn to become a wonderful human being instead of trashing other people because they're not learning Korean. I will probably know more Korean in a few months than a friend who has been here longer than me, and he can read Hangeul.
Would that make me a better person? You're trying to use the fact that you've learned some Korean to feel like you've got some kind of cultural prestige. You should simply do out of love for your desire to connect with the culture, not hate Westerners who haven't learned as much as some of us.
Good night..... |
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Setaro
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Setaro wrote: |
| In this thread: many cretins who can't read the world's simplest writing system, and hide their ignorance behind a veil of 'I don't need to learn'. I bet they still go to Korean restaurants and ask for a fork because they haven't bothered to learn how to use chopsticks after years in Korea. |
Dude, what's it to you? Do you really need such a boost to your self-esteem to trash people who are not learning Korean? I am learning Korean, but one of my favorite workmates doesn't care, and he is a wonderful human being. Maybe, you could learn to become a wonderful human being instead of trashing other people because they're not learning Korean. I will probably know more Korean in a few months than a friend who has been here longer than me, and he can read Hangeul.
Would that make me a better person? You're trying to use the fact that you've learned some Korean to feel like you've got some kind of cultural prestige. You should simply do out of love for your desire to connect with the culture, not hate Westerners who haven't learned as much as some of us.
Good night..... |
If you (not YOU, I'm talking generally) move to live and work in a foreign country, for a period of years, yet make such a lack of effort in learning the language that you can't even read the simple script of said country, you are a [Ad Hominem Language Mod Edit].
And yet again, you misunderstood what the OP and I can't seem to comprehend. This is nothing do with with how many Korean words you know, or how much you can speak. It's purely about that some people have been here years yet can't read a bunch of letters that take about 2 hours to memorize. I tought my girlfriend to read half the Hangeul letters in 45 minutes, just by looking at the station names on each metro stop as we travelled. By the end of the trip she could read some of the station names without needing to look at the romanisation.
If someone has been here years and can't even do that, their ignorance is truly astounding. |
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Pa Jan Jo A Hamnida
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Location: Not Korea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:27 am Post subject: |
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So Setaro, did you teech her to speel too?  |
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goat
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pa Jan Jo A Hamnida wrote: |
| So Setaro, did you teech her to speel too? |
Before Setaro attacks others about learning a foreign language, he should master his native language. Cretin!  |
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DanseurVertical
Joined: 24 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Long timers that are illiterate |
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| myenglishisno wrote: |
Met a few teachers the other night who've been here for more than a few years. We got talking and got on the topic of Korean. All of them divulged that they couldn't read a word of 한글 nor were they great at speaking.
My Korean is far from perfect but I have been studying since I've been here. My spoken Korean should be much better but anything to do with written Korean and I'm doing pretty well. I keep a journal in Korean, talk to Korean friends online in Korean, as well as read the news and so on. I actually thought I was well behind the average for people that have been there as long as I.
Anyway, not counting the people who have been here for fewer than two years, I keep running into long-timers who can't read 한글. Either they can't read it or they can barely read it. Sometimes they're proud of it like it is some kind of accomplishment and other times they hide it for awhile and it takes awhile to piece it together.
Part of me would write a person off for this as in the same way, I'd write someone off for believing that pro-wrestling was real. Then again, some of them seem like perfectly intelligent, normal people. That and it seems like more than 60% (rough estimate) of the long timers (2+ years) I meet can't read.
Is there any excuse for this? Why can't you read (assuming you can't)? |
I can't easily imagine learning to speak words in a language without practicing some written phonetic representation of those words. But I'm a highly visual / symbolic learner. Spoken words just don't make a comparable impression in my memory. Can these people you've met speak words of Korean but just not write them? Is their pronunciation comparable to a literate speaker?
I'm replying because I met a foreign teacher who had lived in the Anyang area for two years and, as she said, "cannot read Korean". My initial judgement was that she was unintelligent and probably a naive 학원 teacher who came here for a year and was on her way out. Then with more conversation I realized that wasn't the case at all. Well, she is leaving, but for law school back in North America.
There are (to my knowledge) no evening Korean classes in the Anyang area (which is ridiculous, given the large number of foreigners here). Still, not taking the initiative to learn to write on one's own is bizarre to me. Are some such people highly auditory learners? Are they so culturally boring that they have no interest in understanding Korea beyond what people tell them? Are they so intellectually boring that they've no interest in non-Indo-European languages? Do they spend 3/4 of their freetime in the presence of other native English speakers? |
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rabidcake
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Carolla wrote: |
No, it does not. I lived in Seoul for 8 years, learned how to read, can't carry a conversation. And you know what? for the, let's say 1,500 hours I would have had to study to get to intermediate level vs. the 0 hours I had to study to get to my current level, the investment vs. reward is completely out of whack. And I really dare you to challenge me on these numbers because I will completely school you, hands down. Please, argue with me. Please. |
God, I love the superior feeling I have when I see these posts. What a loser. hahaha |
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rabidcake
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Setaro wrote: |
| In this thread: many cretins who can't read the world's simplest writing system, and hide their ignorance behind a veil of 'I don't need to learn'. I bet they still go to Korean restaurants and ask for a fork because they haven't bothered to learn how to use chopsticks after years in Korea. |
but one of my favorite workmates doesn't care, and he is a wonderful human being. Maybe, you could learn to become a wonderful human being instead of trashing other people because they're not learning Korean. |
I'm sure he's wonderful just stupid or lazy, your pick. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: Re: Long timers that are illiterate |
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| DanseurVertical wrote: |
I can't easily imagine learning to speak words in a language without practicing some written phonetic representation of those words. But I'm a highly visual / symbolic learner. Spoken words just don't make a comparable impression in my memory. Can these people you've met speak words of Korean but just not write them? Is their pronunciation comparable to a literate speaker?
I'm replying because I met a foreign teacher who had lived in the Anyang area for two years and, as she said, "cannot read Korean". My initial judgement was that she was unintelligent and probably a naive 학원 teacher who came here for a year and was on her way out. Then with more conversation I realized that wasn't the case at all. Well, she is leaving, but for law school back in North America.
There are (to my knowledge) no evening Korean classes in the Anyang area (which is ridiculous, given the large number of foreigners here). Still, not taking the initiative to learn to write on one's own is bizarre to me. Are some such people highly auditory learners? Are they so culturally boring that they have no interest in understanding Korea beyond what people tell them? Are they so intellectually boring that they've no interest in non-Indo-European languages? Do they spend 3/4 of their freetime in the presence of other native English speakers? |
I spend most of my freetime with other NETs. These are the people I work with, these are who my friends are. It's not that I'm opposed to having Korean friends (some of my closest high school friends are from Seoul, and I see them often), but when there's only one male Korean in my workplace, and I'm close with all the foreigners I work with, the opportunity for buddying up is rather limited (as well as unnecessary, considering I already have a lot of friends). I think you're trying too hard to be interesting if you make Korean friends for the sake of having Korean friends.
The grand total of my Korean "study" is about three hours split between Rosetta Stone and a book that I've never opened. That said, I've gotten my speaking and listening to a pretty decent level by learning from my girlfriend, my coworkers, and my Korean friends. I'm a bit of an autodidact with certain subjects, but language has never been one of them. Learning by speaking has been pretty effective for me, and I have enough Korean to have a conversation and joke around. I'd much rather improve my Korean through socialization than through study, to be honest, as if I'm going to crack the books there are many subjects that are more immediately interesting to me. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Chet Wautlands wrote: |
| I strongly encourage any foreigner living here to learn some Korean because it has enhanced my life so much. It's not as hard as people make it out to be. It really isn't. And no, I'm not a gifted language learner. I just spent time learning the language. |
How many hours total have you spent studying Korean?
In my experience most people seriously underestimate the difficulty of the Korean language. It looks easy at first, but it is not. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I curse the day I first got the notion in my head I was going to speak Korean. I've poured so much time and money into the language, but am still not conversant, and I am beginning to doubt whether I will ever be. |
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