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tukmax
Joined: 06 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Hey OP,
I know what you mean. My first year of teaching in Korea was a complete gong show. I experienced a lot of the same issues that you are describing. My mother, a teacher for 30+ years, told me she also went through the same thing her first year of teaching. The good thing is that both of us had amazing second years of teaching. It was like a 180 degree difference. I think the key is to find the equilibrium of being firm/strict, but at the same time enjoying yourself and having fun. Looking back I was far too rigid my first year of teaching. I should have loosened up more, played more games, laughed more and just chilled out with the kids.
Don't take anything personal, especially if your school gives you a bad review/evaluation. In both cases we (my mother and I) had people at our school's ask us if we really should be teachers or not after our first years. Well we both learned from our mistakes, continued teaching, and had fantastic second years. |
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pest2
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Good post
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
When you have this conversation, she will smile nervously while simultaneously thinking you're off your rocker. ... |
Yup. Don't involve the Korean teacher if you don't have to. It's up to YOU to make things work in your own classroom. If you can show you can handle that then you may gain a few bonus points towards building decent rapport with the other teachers and if they are on your side that will really help.
The Korean teachers don't have much incentive to help, and in many cases enjoy the fact that you are failing. They like having the double standard on their side as it gives them power. They won't admit this to you of course.
There is a mega double standard regarding how Koreans treat non-Koreans, so it's best to get used to that now.
Yes, in YOUR mind you deserve respect and have authority. But you're not Korean; In the students' minds you're essentially a smiling foreign monkey who lets them get away with misbehaving, and it's hilarious to them. They know there are no repercussions at all for misbehavior, and since you aren't Korean, you don't register on their social scale. It's the same mindset they makes them yell from afar "Ah! Weigookin! HI!!! Puck you!! hahaha..." We now have a whole generation of spoiled rotten Korean kids growing up with this attitude, and most of the adults never check them on it, because 1. they don't discipline kids anymore, and 2. inside many of them essentially feel the same way. Actually they are letting the kids get away with more and more and it's going to bite them eventually but that's a different story.
Sounds like your school has no discipline system in place though, so you may have to fend for yourself and make your own guidelines and limits. You say you don't take sh*t but you've already taken a boatload from the kids, so whatever you are doing in class obviously isn't enough.
How can you win them over? For every teacher it's different but first, REALLY stop taking their s*it, get scary, and show them that they CANNOT act like that. If they act better you can always let them back into your good graces later, but only if they deserve it. Get a reward and punishment system going and post class rules so they know what is acceptable and what isn't. you might try a providing fun and engaging lessons too that they will WANT to engage in. Use competition to your advantage and get them going against each other instead of against you. Team activities, etc. |
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ForeverWanderlust
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
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I mean what else is there for me to do? I raise my voice (almost to the point of a brief yell / shout) I walk over and get right in there personal area / face, I have a very stern mean look going. I threaten to remove them from class. I threaten to get the Korean teacher. Do you you people hit the kids? Or is there something else im missing? You say im not doing enough. So please enlighten me on what else I need to do (that doesnt involve getting the korean teachers and director/manager involved)
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
When you have this conversation, she will smile nervously while simultaneously thinking you're off your rocker. ... |
Yup. Don't involve the Korean teacher if you don't have to. It's up to YOU to make things work in your own classroom. If you can show you can handle that then you may gain a few bonus points towards building decent rapport with the other teachers and if they are on your side that will really help.
The Korean teachers don't have much incentive to help, and in many cases enjoy the fact that you are failing. They like having the double standard on their side as it gives them power. They won't admit this to you of course.
There is a mega double standard regarding how Koreans treat non-Koreans, so it's best to get used to that now.
Yes, in YOUR mind you deserve respect and have authority. But you're not Korean; In the students' minds you're essentially a smiling foreign monkey who lets them get away with misbehaving, and it's hilarious to them. They know there are no repercussions at all for misbehavior, and since you aren't Korean, you don't register on their social scale. It's the same mindset they makes them yell from afar "Ah! Weigookin! HI!!! Puck you!! hahaha..." We now have a whole generation of spoiled rotten Korean kids growing up with this attitude, and most of the adults never check them on it, because 1. they don't discipline kids anymore, and 2. inside many of them essentially feel the same way. Actually they are letting the kids get away with more and more and it's going to bite them eventually but that's a different story.
Sounds like your school has no discipline system in place though, so you may have to fend for yourself and make your own guidelines and limits. You say you don't take sh*t but you've already taken a boatload from the kids, so whatever you are doing in class obviously isn't enough.
How can you win them over? For every teacher it's different but first, REALLY stop taking their s*it, get scary, and show them that they CANNOT act like that. If they act better you can always let them back into your good graces later, but only if they deserve it. Get a reward and punishment system going and post class rules so they know what is acceptable and what isn't. you might try a providing fun and engaging lessons too that they will WANT to engage in. Use competition to your advantage and get them going against each other instead of against you. Team activities, etc. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| ForeverWanderlust wrote: |
I mean what else is there for me to do? I raise my voice (almost to the point of a brief yell / shout) I walk over and get right in there personal area / face, I have a very stern mean look going. I threaten to remove them from class. I threaten to get the Korean teacher. Do you you people hit the kids? Or is there something else im missing? You say im not doing enough. So please enlighten me on what else I need to do (that doesnt involve getting the korean teachers and director/manager involved)
| Mix1 wrote: |
| How can you win them over? For every teacher it's different but first, REALLY stop taking their s*it, get scary, and show them that they CANNOT act like that. If they act better you can always let them back into your good graces later, but only if they deserve it. Get a reward and punishment system going and post class rules so they know what is acceptable and what isn't. you might try a providing fun and engaging lessons too that they will WANT to engage in. Use competition to your advantage and get them going against each other instead of against you. Team activities, etc. |
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Mix1 provides some good strategies. Having a reward system combined with clearly displayed rules is a step in the right direction.
Raising your voice and shouting at the kids isn't pedagogically sound. Firmness is one thing, but you don't want the kids to be terrified of you.
Threatening to get the Korean teacher undermines the authority you're attempting to cultivate and makes it clear that you aren't the one who controls the classroom.
You also shouldn't use idle threats. This is where a rewards system can come into play. Students can receive a negative mark for misbehavior (an X is most common). If they continue to misbehave (and receive negative marks), you have a clear line set with established punishments for crossing it. For example, you might put something in place where if a student misbehaves three times they will stand at the back, stand in the hall, etc. If they continue to misbehave you can have more stringent punishments for further misbehavior. |
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ForeverWanderlust
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I teach in small rooms so standing at the back would do nothing. They would carry on talking just like if they were seated. I could force them to go outside, but then my director would see a 1-3 students standing outside my classroom prob goofing off and wonder what the heck im doing.
At this point im pretty sure the best option is to escort them to the director.managers office or classroom she is teaching and just say hey "Jae Sung" is being loud and will not stop talking disrupting class. I do not know what to do with him as he doesnt listen to anything I say. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| ForeverWanderlust wrote: |
I teach in small rooms so standing at the back would do nothing. They would carry on talking just like if they were seated. I could force them to go outside, but then my director would see a 1-3 students standing outside my classroom prob goofing off and wonder what the heck im doing.
At this point im pretty sure the best option is to escort them to the director.managers office or classroom she is teaching and just say hey "Jae Sung" is being loud and will not stop talking disrupting class. I do not know what to do with him as he doesnt listen to anything I say. |
Okay, but again, you're not going to establish discipline if you remain beholden to your Korean coworkers to be your muscle. You could have them face the wall in the back, take away their chairs, etc. The important thing is to set up a system wherein there are defined boundaries that the students are aware of, and to be consistent in following that system. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ForeverWanderlust wrote: |
| I mean what else is there for me to do? I raise my voice (almost to the point of a brief yell / shout) I walk over and get right in there personal area / face, I have a very stern mean look going. I threaten to remove them from class. I threaten to get the Korean teacher. Do you you people hit the kids? Or is there something else im missing? |
Northway knows what he's talking about. Regarding the punishment reward system, make it about THEM and their choices. One Example could be: if they choose to yell and scream, they get an X mark. 3 X's equals some kind of punishment. Check marks for the good students who answer a question correctly. Those with checks have no homework or 5 minutes free time at the end of class. Those with X's get an extra assignment while they sit in the hallway. Maybe you can ask coteachers what a suitable punishment can be, just so everyone is on the same page.
The punishments are based on the class rules that you have posted, that way everything is clear. When the bad students do something good, praise them for it but don't go overboard with praise until they really start to deserve it. You won't get them to like you immediately but if you can get some respect by being consistent that's a good start.
Also, yelling can be perceived as a sign of weakness because you are losing your cool. They like you to lose your cool. It's fun for them to see and they will push that envelope. Definitely be firm but yelling usually won't cut it. See how loud they are anyway? A yell is nothing to them.
There is no hitting involved of course because if you manage well it isn't necessary. ...That said, when I taught kids a few years ago, we had a disciplinarian male Korean teacher who scared the crap out of the students. This was when corporal punishment was still allowed. The bad students went from loudmouth spazzes to polite little gentlemen after one visit to that guy. It was amazing. He would also lecture them about respect and how they were shaming their country and their families by acting that way and they were passing up a good chance to learn a new language and better themselves. I'm sure that had an effect on things. But we still rarely had to send anyone to that guy unless it was an extreme case. Just his presence in the institute made the kids know there were lines that could not be crossed. The other institutes on the other floors were nightmares though, with kids spitting on people from windows, etc. But our kids were great. Our institute made the kids sign a contract saying they would abide by the rules and if they didn't they could be punished however the school chose. Those days seem to be over though.
I saw the guy last month and he doesn't teach anymore. He said everything has changed in just a few years. The parents used to thank him for straightening out their kids, but now if anyone is harsh with the little princes/princesses, the parents go crazy, blame the teacher (never their kids' behavior). So this is the context you are teaching in today. Advice: always make it about the kids' behavior and keep clear guidelines as to what they do wrong. Best of luck to anyone who teaches kids in this country nowadays. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Also, yelling can be perceived as a sign of weakness because you are losing your cool. They like you to lose your cool. It's fun for them to see and they will push that envelope. Definitely be firm but yelling usually won't cut it. See how loud they are anyway? A yell is nothing to them. |
Definitely. If you're yelling in class you don't have self-control, and it's really difficult to control a classroom of screaming children when you can't control yourself.
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
Maybe, but it's the louder complainers who make the real noise. They usually have some money and so people tend to cow tow to them. They have a chilling effect on teachers, lowering their authority because now Minsu can do whatever he wants in class since Mommy will threaten to get the teacher fired if anyone upsets her firstborn prince. Public and private school teachers complain of this phenomenon fairly often. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
Maybe, but it's the louder complainers who make the real noise. They usually have some money and so people tend to cow tow to them. They have a chilling effect on teachers, lowering their authority because now Minsu can do whatever he wants in class since Mommy will threaten to get the teacher fired if anyone upsets her firstborn prince. Public and private school teachers complain of this phenomenon fairly often. |
This is true. When I started at my school two years ago it was far more of an issue, as it was generally disorganized and bleeding students. Now, after 18 months of competent management and some institutional holdover, they're much quicker to tell the crazy moms to take their kids elsewhere if they have a problem. At a school that isn't negotiating from a position of strength, however, this is far less likely to happen. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
Maybe, but it's the louder complainers who make the real noise. They usually have some money and so people tend to cow tow to them. They have a chilling effect on teachers, lowering their authority because now Minsu can do whatever he wants in class since Mommy will threaten to get the teacher fired if anyone upsets her firstborn prince. Public and private school teachers complain of this phenomenon fairly often. |
Since most public school teachers have tenure and a strong union (as unions here go) I doubt they really care. The ones on contract I can see but not the regular ones. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
Maybe, but it's the louder complainers who make the real noise. They usually have some money and so people tend to cow tow to them. They have a chilling effect on teachers, lowering their authority because now Minsu can do whatever he wants in class since Mommy will threaten to get the teacher fired if anyone upsets her firstborn prince. Public and private school teachers complain of this phenomenon fairly often. |
Since most public school teachers have tenure and a strong union (as unions here go) I doubt they really care. The ones on contract I can see but not the regular ones. |
You can doubt it if you want, but after a teacher training gig I had, it certainly seemed to be an issue, ESPECIALLY with the ones who had been teaching a while, as they remembered the way things used to be when teachers had more clout/authority. There's been a sea change in attitude towards teachers roles over a short period of time and most were none too happy about it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
Maybe, but it's the louder complainers who make the real noise. They usually have some money and so people tend to cow tow to them. They have a chilling effect on teachers, lowering their authority because now Minsu can do whatever he wants in class since Mommy will threaten to get the teacher fired if anyone upsets her firstborn prince. Public and private school teachers complain of this phenomenon fairly often. |
Since most public school teachers have tenure and a strong union (as unions here go) I doubt they really care. The ones on contract I can see but not the regular ones. |
You can doubt it if you want, but after a teacher training gig I had, it certainly seemed to be an issue, ESPECIALLY with the ones who had been teaching a while, as they remembered the way things used to be when teachers had more clout/authority. There's been a sea change in attitude towards teachers roles over a short period of time and most were none too happy about it. |
Actually it's got nothing to do with doubt. Once a teacher has tenure here he can't be fired over a minor complaint. Heck there are teachers here who have been convicted of sex crimes working in public schools...they just get shifted around. It is almost impossible to fire them. Contract teachers and first year teachers yes...but the long-termers with tenure are all but immovable.
Yes they have less authority to punish the kids nowadays but they are NOT going to get fired over some mother calling in that he's giving their kid too much homework or something like that. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
That aside, there are still plenty of parents who are happy with you straightening out their kids. |
Maybe, but it's the louder complainers who make the real noise. They usually have some money and so people tend to cow tow to them. They have a chilling effect on teachers, lowering their authority because now Minsu can do whatever he wants in class since Mommy will threaten to get the teacher fired if anyone upsets her firstborn prince. Public and private school teachers complain of this phenomenon fairly often. |
Since most public school teachers have tenure and a strong union (as unions here go) I doubt they really care. The ones on contract I can see but not the regular ones. |
You can doubt it if you want, but after a teacher training gig I had, it certainly seemed to be an issue, ESPECIALLY with the ones who had been teaching a while, as they remembered the way things used to be when teachers had more clout/authority. There's been a sea change in attitude towards teachers roles over a short period of time and most were none too happy about it. |
Actually it's got nothing to do with doubt. Once a teacher has tenure here he can't be fired over a minor complaint. Heck there are teachers here who have been convicted of sex crimes working in public schools...they just get shifted around. It is almost impossible to fire them. Contract teachers and first year teachers yes...but the long-termers with tenure are all but immovable.
Yes they have less authority to punish the kids nowadays but they are NOT going to get fired over some mother calling in that he's giving their kid too much homework or something like that. |
Ok, I never claimed the above or said anyone, especially with tenure, will necessarily be fired. What I'm saying is that according to the teachers there has been a shift in attitude over the last few years by parents and by extension students as well, resulting in less authority for teachers and worse behavior by students.
Sometimes this results in threats to get teachers fired, or sometimes as simple as getting a teacher to apologize to a parent because their kid wasn't given the royal treatment. In other words a teaching environment where the students and parents run the show more than in the past and the teacher has less respect and often has to cow tow to them.
For foreign teachers, the level of respect is even lower than the local teachers, so it can often be a double whammy for them if they don't have serious class management skills. Ironically, the longer the foreign teachers are here, the more clout you would expect them to have as Koreans get used to foreigners more, but it almost seems the opposite effect is occurring (for various reasons), coinciding with the overall lessening of respect for teachers overall. |
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