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Captain Marlow
Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Location: darkness
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 Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:09 am Post subject: |
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ttomplatz is one of the most knowledgable people on subjects in this area... op, i would definitely follow his advice (as i did after leaving a hogwan my second year after only 3 months)...
you can go about this two ways... for me, i was very unhappy with the job i'd had for 15 months, and decided to shop around... when i saw how easy it was to find another (better) job, i gave my boss 2 months notice (tho only required to give one according to the contract)... my boss fired me that night...
within a week, i had about 10 interested employees... the job process was easy... interviewed in person, in daegu, got the job i wanted... i also had no letter of release (LOR)... a letter of release just means that you don't have to hand in any of the original documentation... kimmi just uses the original that you turned in for your first visa...
upon getting the job, i was required to turn in a new back ground check, original transcripts, original diploma, copy of passport... this got my visa verification number (i think that's the name)... i i took this to japan for a 3 day stay... your new school should be persuaded to pay for this... they gave me my new visa and i returned... once back in country, they'll take you for the health check...
note that you have a few things going for you... you are in country, which saves the employer a ton (but this will usually mean no return trip ticket to your own country)... also, if you contact the schools directly, avoiding recruiters, this also saves the school quite a bit...
i do feel you should be completely honest with any potential employers... tell them why you left *and make sure that you ask them to promise that they will treat you different* this places the blame on your past employer a little more firmly in their eyes...
good luck and don't worry... just get the paperwork ready first, especially the background check (not sure about the whole fbi check or whether it's definitely required)... then inform your boss... yes, if you could make it to 6 months, then you can avoid paying back your original flight... |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Your ARE required to give notice to leave a job. The required notice is what is written in your contract. If you leave without giving notice you can be sued for damages. It is possible for those damages to exceed what you would earn in a year. If you plan to ever work in Korea again, you should give the proper notice.
In any case, since you probably have to repay airfare if you leave before six months, you should give enough notice so that you work to the six month mark.
Your best option is to draw up a termination contract wherein you guarantee to work an agreed period that allows your employer the time to replace you and he affirms that you will receive all payments due, letters of release so that you can change to new jobs without visa runs, and that you will have worked long enough to satisfy the airfare repayment clause. This will ease your boss's tensions and worries, it will give you a date certain to leave by, and should make everyone's life easier. You may be able to depart on good terms.
Try to have a good relationship in your final days. Try to work this out so that everyone wins and you will make your lives easier and you will come out ahead financially.
Ttompatz has flipped out lately. He is giving very bad advice. He should be ignored and treated as a troll. |
Article 19 of the labor standards act overrides the required notice in a labor contract drawn up for use in Korea. |
More bad advice. Labor law allows you to quit but does not absolve you from your obligations under the contract. The contract remains intact and in force.
Labor law allows you to quit and leave. Of course, no one is a slave. You can always quit and leave any job, (with the exceptions of jobs such as military service and those few cases where "specific performance" may be required - and this will not be ordered for an E2 teacher - although performers and others have been so ordered.)
However, your contract is binding and numerous teachers have been sued. (And don't be silly, these will not be found in the media. There are hundreds of thousands of civil lawsuits every year and fewer than 1/10 of 1% will ever interest the media.) Yes, teachers may escape paying damages by never returning to Korea - since the cost of pursuit is high - but for those who want to teach in Korea in the future, it is best NOT to cause damages.
If your life or health are in danger, or if your employer has breached your contract in a material way, of course you may quit and if you have not breached the contract in any way and met all required terms there is little chance of being sued for damages.
However, a high percentage of teachers who "run" have not been cheated in any way. They have no cause not to follow the contract. To encourage them to leave without following the contract is not only bad advice, it may means the party dispensing such improper legal advice and encouraging the runner is also liable for damages. These teachers have no defense against a suit for damages.
In addition, for teachers who do have cause to quit, running is still generally not the best option. It will often cause the teacher greater financial hardship and make it more difficult to collect for damages or money owed to the teacher.
In another active thread ongoing at the present time, a teacher who claimed to have been cheated, and was given the usual unquestioned bad advice, later admitted in the thread that his employer hadn't yet failed to make required payments for Pension and Health Insurance and he hadn't actually checked. But the usual biased posters had failed to even question the facts which clearly showed, to an unbiased observer, that the poster in question could not have been cheated yet since he hadn't worked long enough. Assuming that cheating has occured or will occur before it is even possible is biased and irresponsible. This may lead to the teacher quitting or running without cause or failing to attempt to amicably resolve issues that are at present either immaterial or only anticipated and not yet materialized.
TTompatz regularly advises teachers who have not been cheated to run, on the off chance that they could be cheated by giving proper notice. (This is based on his oft stated biased viewpoint that all or nearly all private institutes are dishonest.) Such advice can damage the school, cause the teacher to face legal action and subject the advisor posing as a legal authority to legal action as well.
TTompatz does not give balanced advice and does not encourage resolution of minor problems. Instead, he encourages distrust and rash, irresponsible actions. He has a very biased one sided viewpoint that is dangerous for those who come in search of some sage words and dangerous for Dave's Esl if he cannot be brought back to take a serious, moderate, balanced position on the issues and difficulties he advises upon.
All parties in these difficult situations - teachers, principals, administrators, school owners etc - should be encouraged to work out these generally minor problems: quiet, calm, rational discussion and conflict resolution, making a sincere effort to perform and follow the contract and avoidance of the mutual destruction that comes from the rash, irresponsible actions that are too often recommended on Dave's. |
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Wildbore
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
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The above poster FAILS to mention that in the event damages are caused, the employer also has a duty to mitigate those damages.
So, if the running teacher is replaced relatively quickly, the damages will be a few days without a teacher.
Also, how many employers deposit the last paycheque even after a teacher pulled a runner. You can sue them for damages to, such as interest, if they withhold the money. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
In addition, for teachers who do have cause to quit, running is still generally not the best option. It will often cause the teacher greater financial hardship and make it more difficult to collect for damages or money owed to the teacher.
Agreed. The labor board should be the first line in a case such as this.
In another active thread ongoing at the present time, a teacher who claimed to have been cheated, and was given the usual unquestioned bad advice, later admitted in the thread that his employer hadn't yet failed to make required payments for Pension and Health Insurance and he hadn't actually checked. But the usual biased posters had failed to even question the facts which clearly showed, to an unbiased observer, that the poster in question could not have been cheated yet since he hadn't worked long enough. Assuming that cheating has occured or will occur before it is even possible is biased and irresponsible. This may lead to the teacher quitting or running without cause or failing to attempt to amicably resolve issues that are at present either immaterial or only anticipated and not yet materialized.
No, the teacher asked about the consequences of running and was told that their weren't any. He was not told to run. He had already made up his mind on his choice (quit without notice).
TTompatz regularly advises teachers who have not been cheated to run, on the off chance that they could be cheated by giving proper notice. (This is based on his oft stated biased viewpoint that all or nearly all private institutes are dishonest.) Such advice can damage the school, cause the teacher to face legal action and subject the advisor posing as a legal authority to legal action as well.
No, he doesn't. He does suggest that giving proper notice to an employer who is already cheating the employee is asking to be further victimized and rather than continue to be victimized (IF they are going to leave already) and if the employee is not seeing damages later to just leave at their convenience
All parties in these difficult situations - teachers, principals, administrators, school owners etc - should be encouraged to work out these generally minor problems: quiet, calm, rational discussion and conflict resolution, making a sincere effort to perform and follow the contract and avoidance of the mutual destruction that comes from the rash, irresponsible actions that are too often recommended on Dave's.
AGREED
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And to end.
I NEVER advocate running as a first response.
I usually suggest the MOEL, NPS and NHIC be contacted first and give links to them. I also strongly suggest that employees take an hour or so to actually READ the labor standards acts to end the nonsense that does occur on these boards.
HOWEVER - I do give advice about running AFTER the employee has made up their mind to do so and IF running (quitting without notice) is what they have chosen as a means to happiness then I offer advice on the how, where, what for, etc.
and LASTLY, you have claimed that teachers have faced suits over running and have lost. I challenge you to name just ONE case and the court (I will go and look) because in over 10 years at the help center I have NEVER seen such a case.
I have seen (and been involved as an agent) in cases where employees have ran, filed claims with the labor board for unpaid wages then had those claims reduced by the mount of airfare or outstanding bills.
I have NEVER seen or heard of a case where damages were awarded (since it is illegal for such in a LABOR CONTRACT) in Korea (forbidden by that same labor standards acts).
This is NOT true for those poor souls who actually ARE subcontractors (in real and not just in name). They CAN be held accountable and held for damages.
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
[q
However, your contract is binding and numerous teachers have been sued. (And don't be silly, these will not be found in the media. There are hundreds of thousands of civil lawsuits every year and fewer than 1/10 of 1% will ever interest the media.) . |
Very well then where is your proof that "numerous teachers have been sued"?
I would like to see a case where a FOREIGN teacher was SUCCESSFULLY sued for LEAVING WITHOUT NOTICE in KOREA by a HAKWON owner.
Do you have any actual cases that you can link us to or is this something you've "heard"? Time to put up or be quiet. |
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philipswoodjnr
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope you get a good conclusion as it can be very stressful dealing with stubborn Korean hagwon bosses. Good luck |
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thurst
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Article 19 of the labor standards act overrides the required notice in a labor contract drawn up for use in Korea.
Article 19 (Violation of Working Conditions)
(1) If any of the working conditions set forth in accordance with Article 17 (Statement of Working Conditions) is found to be inconsistent with the actual
conditions, the worker concerned shall be entitled to claim damages resulting from the breach of the working conditions or may terminate the labor contract forthwith.
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the OP hasn't said that the hagwon's conditions were inconsistent with what they were told so they do have to give notice. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| thurst wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
Article 19 of the labor standards act overrides the required notice in a labor contract drawn up for use in Korea.
Article 19 (Violation of Working Conditions)
(1) If any of the working conditions set forth in accordance with Article 17 (Statement of Working Conditions) is found to be inconsistent with the actual
conditions, the worker concerned shall be entitled to claim damages resulting from the breach of the working conditions or may terminate the labor contract forthwith.
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the OP hasn't said that the hagwon's conditions were inconsistent with what they were told so they do have to give notice. |
| Quote: |
| "they have held onto money belong to us without warning" |
This quote is from the OP's first post. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[q
However, your contract is binding and numerous teachers have been sued. (And don't be silly, these will not be found in the media. There are hundreds of thousands of civil lawsuits every year and fewer than 1/10 of 1% will ever interest the media.) . |
Very well then where is your proof that "numerous teachers have been sued"?
I would like to see a case where a FOREIGN teacher was SUCCESSFULLY sued for LEAVING WITHOUT NOTICE in KOREA by a HAKWON owner.
Do you have any actual cases that you can link us to or is this something you've "heard"? Time to put up or be quiet. |
I too would love to see something to back up this claim. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[q
However, your contract is binding and numerous teachers have been sued. (And don't be silly, these will not be found in the media. There are hundreds of thousands of civil lawsuits every year and fewer than 1/10 of 1% will ever interest the media.) . |
Very well then where is your proof that "numerous teachers have been sued"?
I would like to see a case where a FOREIGN teacher was SUCCESSFULLY sued for LEAVING WITHOUT NOTICE in KOREA by a HAKWON owner.
Do you have any actual cases that you can link us to or is this something you've "heard"? Time to put up or be quiet. |
I too would love to see something to back up this claim. |
Same here. So far, it's just another meme along the lines of "We don't give credit to foreigners because of all the foreigners who've defaulted." It's a blurb, absent any actual evidence. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thing is out of these alleged numerous cases...how hard could it be to find ONE case where a foreign teacher was successfully sued by a hakwon for leaving early?
Even if just one such documented case was provided it would go a long way towards changing my mind (provided there are no singularities..ie. the teacher was flat-out lying). |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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10 years at the help center, over 100 tribunals at MOLAB/MOEL and I not aware of and can find NO case in either/any of the Seoul, Suwon, Seongnam, Gwangju/Hannam, or Incheon court districts.
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