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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Youre' right I should be all freaked out about this. I'm sure the U.S. government is plotting to assassinate me right now.....  |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
Disagree. Al Queada not only spoke of killing Americans they actually did it. If Al awaki broadcasts online that he will kill Americans, why not take him at his word? Does not his organization actively train and plan their terrorist plots?
People who threaten the president are able to be arrested without incident. Gunmen holding hostages in a bank and people living in Yemen are not.
Alawaki and his supporters have no reason to complain, however citizens of Yemen might because their national borders were infringed upon. |
AQ did, someone or a group of people did. Did he specifically? If someone in the Gambino family murders someone are all the members guilty of murder even if they were not involved? If a crip member kills a blood, are all the members of that crip gang guilty of murder if they were not involved? If this guy was part of the plot to kill Americans, try him? Why are we taking the President's word for it? He's an American citizen, he deserves to face his accuser and see the evidence against him doesn't he?
Take him at his word? So, would we execute an American citizen who said they shot JFK even if there was no proof? When someone confesses to a murder in America they have to say how they did it. A judge won't accept it there is a belief the facts don't add up.
Again, these guys are pond scum. Their deaths mean nothing to me. However, the how and why of their deaths means the world to me because a violation of American laws, due process and civil liberties was violated. If its accepted that we can violate any citizens rights, then its a threat to my rights...and yours. |
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Mikejelai
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| What is your point, steelrails? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Mikejelai wrote: |
| The real problem here is that this incident lessens the international credibility of the USA: you can't tell other nations to "follow the rule of law" when you (the USA) don't do so. That is the real problem............... |
Exactly. I guess some other country can now justify an invasion and attack on the US because she is "killing her own citizens." |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
So that's ok with you? You just sit back and accept that?
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
So that's ok with you? You just sit back and accept that?
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Yeah.
Since the dawn of time and forever into the future, someone more powerful and richer than you, will have the means to kill you and probably get away with it.
But does that mean that they will do it?
I could get all upset and build a bunker and buy bunch of assault weapons (an act that might increase their chances of killing me) or I could start some protest movement that would accomplish nothing. "Hi, care to subscribe to my 'Please Don't Assassinate Me' newsletter?"
Yeah, that newsletter will show em'
Or I could realize that me being assassinated is about as likely as me getting gunned down by some nut, smushed by some out of control semi-truck, or catching some botulism in some bad canned food
I mean what, do you think Alex Jones and Noam Chomsky are suddenly going to become assassinated? Please.
| Quote: |
| Exactly. I guess some other country can now justify an invasion and attack on the US because she is "killing her own citizens." |
Countries do what they want based on power, not laws. Laws are only a framework by which the powerful resolve disputes in a more cost-effective and stable manner.
Do you really think this has suddenly changed Mugabe's or Putin's mind on what they can and cannot do?
That's like saying "Well now the Mexican Cartels can believe they are justified into going into the U.S. and killing people there because we went into Mexico and killed someone there."
Sorry, but the Cartel didn't give a crap one way or another. It would do what it wanted regardless.
I mean what, did you think that before this, powerful people were sitting around saying "Well we'd love to assassinate him, but that's against the law..." "Shucks, I guess it's plan B..." "Yeah, there's that LAW. WE can't break the law." Gimme a break. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
So Steelrails trusts his gov't.
I sure as hell do not. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
Secret panel can put Americans on �kill list�
October 6, 2011 posted by Run Ron Paul
(Reuters) � American militants like Anwar al-Awlaki are placed on a kill or capture list by a secretive panel of senior government officials, which then informs the president of its decisions, according to officials.
There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House�s National Security Council, several current and former officials said. Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate.
The panel was behind the decision to add Awlaki, a U.S.-born militant preacher with alleged al Qaeda connections, to the target list. He was killed by a CIA drone strike in Yemen late last month.
The role of the president in ordering or ratifying a decision to target a citizen is fuzzy. White House spokesman Tommy Vietor declined to discuss anything about the process.
Current and former officials said that to the best of their knowledge, Awlaki, who the White House said was a key figure in al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, al Qaeda�s Yemen-based affiliate, had been the only American put on a government list targeting people for capture or death due to their alleged involvement with militants.
The White House is portraying the killing of Awlaki as a demonstration of President Barack Obama�s toughness toward militants who threaten the United States. But the process that led to Awlaki�s killing has drawn fierce criticism from both the political left and right.
In an ironic turn, Obama, who ran for president denouncing predecessor George W. Bush�s expansive use of executive power in his �war on terrorism,� is being attacked in some quarters for using similar tactics. They include secret legal justifications and undisclosed intelligence assessments.
Liberals criticized the drone attack on an American citizen as extra-judicial murder.
Conservatives criticized Obama for refusing to release a Justice Department legal opinion that reportedly justified killing Awlaki. They accuse Obama of hypocrisy, noting his administration insisted on publishing Bush-era administration legal memos justifying the use of interrogation techniques many equate with torture, but refused to make public its rationale for killing a citizen without due process.
Ron Paul says Obama should be impeached for al Qaeda killing |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
So Steelrails trusts his gov't.
I sure as hell do not. |
I trust that the government has better uses of its time in being nefarious than drone striking me or anyone that doesn't sorta deserve it.
I mean, how has this changed your perception of trust in government?
Governments do nasty things like this.
This didn't open some new door, they've assassinated people before, they can do it again.
No I don't trust them, but I trust that they will follow certain rules of functionality. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
So Steelrails trusts his gov't.
I sure as hell do not. |
I trust that the government has better uses of its time in being nefarious than drone striking me or anyone that doesn't sorta deserve it.
I mean, how has this changed your perception of trust in government?
Governments do nasty things like this.
This didn't open some new door, they've assassinated people before, they can do it again.
No I don't trust them, but I trust that they will follow certain rules of functionality. |
Sorry, but that is incoherent as a legal standard.
The gov't can kill somebody based on an unreliable tip. Yeah, you're right, its not going to be me or you. But at some point its going to be the wrong guy. And his family and community may get into the game for vengeance. And then we have to kill them, too.
I have a problem with this. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mikejelai wrote: |
| What is your point, steelrails? |
That people are getting bent out of shape over an issue that changes nothing and has no impact on their lives.
Unless you honestly believed that up until now the U.S. government lacked the ability to take you (or someone you know for that matter) out for no reason, or that you believe that the U.S. government is now plotting your assassination... |
So Steelrails trusts his gov't.
I sure as hell do not. |
I trust that the government has better uses of its time in being nefarious than drone striking me or anyone that doesn't sorta deserve it.
I mean, how has this changed your perception of trust in government?
Governments do nasty things like this.
This didn't open some new door, they've assassinated people before, they can do it again.
No I don't trust them, but I trust that they will follow certain rules of functionality. |
Sorry, but that is incoherent as a legal standard.
The gov't can kill somebody based on an unreliable tip. Yeah, you're right, its not going to be me or you. But at some point its going to be the wrong guy. And his family and community may get into the game for vengeance. And then we have to kill them, too.
I have a problem with this. |
Whether or not we should be over there in the first place and whether or not an American engaged in treason while overseas can be assassinated are two separate things. Not to mention the question of whether or not this is some shocking development.
Fine, what are we going to do about it? The very nature of power dictates that you are going to get people who are willing to do nasty things in charge.
This is a symbolic event, not a substantive one. Not to mention its symbolism is weak and will be forgotten. Yes, it was an evil thing and blah blah blah. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
This is a symbolic event, not a substantive one. Not to mention its symbolism is weak and will be forgotten. Yes, it was an evil thing and blah blah blah. |
I know you don't trust the government, but you seem to feel pretty helpless against it. Do you think government power increases over time? My big issue with this event is that the people have accepted a big increase in power: the ability to execute an American without trial or fear of repercussion if the People find out. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
This is a symbolic event, not a substantive one. Not to mention its symbolism is weak and will be forgotten. Yes, it was an evil thing and blah blah blah. |
I know you don't trust the government, but you seem to feel pretty helpless against it. Do you think government power increases over time? My big issue with this event is that the people have accepted a big increase in power: the ability to execute an American without trial or fear of repercussion if the People find out. |
Governments ebb and flow in their power, but I can't think of a government that wasn't run by people capable of ordering some death.
As for accepting the big increase in power, this already existed in substance. The government could whack you or I before this, it can do it after. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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