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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Does this change anything? For those of us who believe in the big evil police military-industrial complex state, they already could whack anyone for whatever reason they saw fit. Nothing has changed. |
Nothing has changed? How about the killing of an American citizen without a trial, despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, and all out in the open, setting a precedent that scholars, rights activists and others say has raised concerns about the rule of law and civil liberties.
I would say that's a big change, regardless of how many covert assassinations there are. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Does this change anything? For those of us who believe in the big evil police military-industrial complex state, they already could whack anyone for whatever reason they saw fit. Nothing has changed. |
Nothing has changed? How about the killing of an American citizen without a trial, despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, and all out in the open, setting a precedent that scholars, rights activists and others say has raised concerns about the rule of law and civil liberties.
I would say that's a big change, regardless of how many covert assassinations there are. |
Outside of the US, the US Constitution has no power. The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution does not follow you when you leave US Soil/Territory.
Yes, its that simple. Accept it. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
Outside of the US, the US Constitution has no power. The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution does not follow you when you leave US Soil/Territory.
Yes, its that simple. Accept it. |
How do you figure? Maybe regarding how foreign countries treat U.S. citizens, but not how the U.S. does.
On top of that, there is an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law [that prohibits Americans from murdering other Americans abroad], protections in the Bill of Rights [the Fourth Amendment�s guarantee that a �person� cannot be seized by the government unreasonably, and the Fifth Amendment�s guarantee that the government may not deprive a person of life �without due process of law�], and various strictures of the international laws of war.
I would never "accept" it anyway, even without all those protections. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Does this change anything? For those of us who believe in the big evil police military-industrial complex state, they already could whack anyone for whatever reason they saw fit. Nothing has changed. |
Nothing has changed? How about the killing of an American citizen without a trial, despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, and all out in the open, setting a precedent that scholars, rights activists and others say has raised concerns about the rule of law and civil liberties.
I would say that's a big change, regardless of how many covert assassinations there are. |
Things already were out in the open, anyone who is actually important enough to know or care already knew.
So the rabble finally found out, big deal. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Does this change anything? For those of us who believe in the big evil police military-industrial complex state, they already could whack anyone for whatever reason they saw fit. Nothing has changed. |
Nothing has changed? How about the killing of an American citizen without a trial, despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, and all out in the open, setting a precedent that scholars, rights activists and others say has raised concerns about the rule of law and civil liberties.
I would say that's a big change, regardless of how many covert assassinations there are. |
Things already were out in the open, anyone who is actually important enough to know or care already knew.
So the rabble finally found out, big deal. |
So you are saying you have no problem with the U.S. government killing U.S citizens without due process, either covertly or overtly? That's just the way it is, and you are okay with it? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Does this change anything? For those of us who believe in the big evil police military-industrial complex state, they already could whack anyone for whatever reason they saw fit. Nothing has changed. |
Nothing has changed? How about the killing of an American citizen without a trial, despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, and all out in the open, setting a precedent that scholars, rights activists and others say has raised concerns about the rule of law and civil liberties.
I would say that's a big change, regardless of how many covert assassinations there are. |
Things already were out in the open, anyone who is actually important enough to know or care already knew.
So the rabble finally found out, big deal. |
So you are saying you have no problem with the U.S. government killing U.S citizens without due process, either covertly or overtly? That's just the way it is, and you are okay with it? |
First off there was the due process of the guy's actions, which were pretty public, followed up with the due process of sifting through intelligence.
Now, if it was on U.S. soil that would be different.
I'm not saying it should be used often, but it should be an option on the table. You never take options off the table.
And yeah, if I wasn't outraged the day before this happened, considering in all likelihood that this sort of thing has happened before either covertly or in the form of things like show trials and executions, then yeah, I'm okay with it in the sense that "the World is evil, so what else is new?". This isn't an outrage to get that lathered over. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Now, if it was on U.S. soil that would be different. |
I appreciate that you've explained your view on Al Awlaki. Could you describe to us how it would be different to you if it had occurred on U.S. soil?
And would it be different if there were suspicions that Awlaki hadn't contributed materially to Al Qaeda? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
Normally I am a staunch believer in civil liberties BUT...If a gunman takes a hostage in a bank and threatens to kill him and then the SWAT team snipers him to death, nobody says what about his right to a fair trial. You knew the risks.
Ala Wacky worked for an organization that has killed thousands of Americans. He has personally threatened to kill Americans in his online speeches. He would kill Americans with extreme prejudice if given half a chance. This time instead of a rifle our "SWAT team" used a drone.
As an aside: drones are badass. Could you imagine living under that threat? |
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is Uttering Death Threats punishable by death? I don't think it is in any State.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Now, if it was on U.S. soil that would be different. |
So all the government has to do is wait for trouble makers to go on vacation?
No tears for this guy, but I can see why some would object to it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Now, if it was on U.S. soil that would be different. |
I appreciate that you've explained your view on Al Awlaki. Could you describe to us how it would be different to you if it had occurred on U.S. soil?
And would it be different if there were suspicions that Awlaki hadn't contributed materially to Al Qaeda? |
Well, in America, enjoy American law. Leave America to join a rag tag guerrilla band that wants to blow up America, well American law might not follow you.
Stay in America and be a religious nut on a compound ala Waco and you'll get a lot more sympathies.
And yes, in theory what went down here is wrong and questionably legal. But in practice on so many levels this is something I just can't get worked up over...It's something they've done before this, the guy had it coming, it's not something that can be changed...
I mean seriously, do you really think Obama will be tried and convicted over this?
And if he was, would that really stop the next guy from doing the same thing? No all they'd do is get sneakier...
Yawn. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I mean seriously, do you really think Obama will be tried and convicted over this? |
No, but I do really think evil prevails when good men do nothing.
"I don't like what he's doing and it might not be legal. I've seen the films and I certainly dont like those people. It's something the government's done before, they have it coming and it's not something that can be changed...
I mean seriously, do you really think Hitler will be tried and convicted over this?
And if he was, would that really stop the next guy from doing the same thing?"
-a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, in America, enjoy American law. Leave America to join a rag tag guerrilla band that wants to blow up America, well American law might not follow you.
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True, but its not a foreign power that is killing an American citizen, its the American government killing an American citizen. It sounds as if you're saying the government can kill any of us once we leave America at its own whim. You are basically entrusting the government the power to kill any citizen it deems.
Again, no one is losing sleep over these guys. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Whether or not we should be over there in the first place and whether or not an American engaged in treason while overseas can be assassinated are two separate things. |
OK, now I see where you are coming from. You've already got the guy convicted without a trial.
| pkang wrote: |
Outside of the US, the US Constitution has no power. The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution does not follow you when you leave US Soil/Territory.
Yes, its that simple. Accept it. |
No, it's not that simple. Why then are there laws which follow people overseas? Under the PROTECT Act, one can be prosecuted for traveling abroad to have sex with anyone under 18 EVEN IF it is legal where you do it! (up to 30 years in prison) If the penalties can follow us, then so should the protections. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Does this change anything? For those of us who believe in the big evil police military-industrial complex state, they already could whack anyone for whatever reason they saw fit. Nothing has changed. |
Nothing has changed? How about the killing of an American citizen without a trial, despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, and all out in the open, setting a precedent that scholars, rights activists and others say has raised concerns about the rule of law and civil liberties.
I would say that's a big change, regardless of how many covert assassinations there are. |
Outside of the US, the US Constitution has no power. The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution does not follow you when you leave US Soil/Territory.
Yes, its that simple. Accept it. |
Wrong.
"The Congress shall have Power ... To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations"
On this subject, I've heard an interesting suggestion. Some have suggested that we issue letters of marque (and we do issue bounties) for terrorists, in addition to some system of limited due process. (Everyone should get some sort of due process, even non-Americans, but the standard for guilt might be 'clear and convincing evidence' or even a 'preponderance of the evidence' rather than 'beyond a reasonable doubt').
Anyway, the Constitution does extend beyond US soil, and has been applied there since its inception. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Yes, its that simple. Accept it. |
Wrong.
"The Congress shall have Power ... To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations"
On this subject, I've heard an interesting suggestion. Some have suggested that we issue letters of marque (and we do issue bounties) for terrorists, in addition to some system of limited due process. (Everyone should get some sort of due process, even non-Americans, but the standard for guilt might be 'clear and convincing evidence' or even a 'preponderance of the evidence' rather than 'beyond a reasonable doubt').
Anyway, the Constitution does extend beyond US soil, and has been applied there since its inception. |
Yes, but the concept of extraterritoriality, or punishing crimes committed in sovereign lands of another, an idea which arose in Nazi-era German laws which proscribed criticizing the Fatherland from abroad, is a relatively new concept. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
Yes, but the concept of extraterritoriality, or punishing crimes committed in sovereign lands of another, an idea which arose in Nazi-era German laws which proscribed criticizing the Fatherland from abroad, is a relatively new concept. |
I'm relatively certain that someone could be convicted of treason committed in another country for as long as the terms "convicted" and "treason" have been around. |
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