Korean Job Discussion Forums

[eamo]

[DIsbell]

Spot on, eamo. If Che really wanted to live as a "champagne socialist" per Dude Love's description, he could've just stayed in Cuba as Fidel's right hand.

I think that's what earns Che some level of admiration- he participated in a successful revolution (you can debate endlessly about what happened in Cuba next, but the revolution itself was undeniably successful) and then went on to attempt more revolutions in other oppressed countries. Che was hardly some mythical, perfect being of clear-cut morals, but the fact is that he died a guerrilla, not an aged dictator. He also represented resistance against imperialism, which is a theme appealing to many people, despite Che's human flaws.

So it's not that Che is a hero, but rather that he represents something- an attitude, an idea. And because of his early death, it's only his revolutionary activity that will be remembered- unlike Mao and Kim Il-sung, who had chances at having a more positive revolutionary legacy but of course ended up being overshadowed by their excessively cruel despotic regimes. (or for another example, Bush's humanitarian efforts in Africa won't be what he's remembered for)

[nukeday]

[eamo]

[rainism]

Che hardly lived the life of the champagne socialist.

Rather, he was the embodiment of the "New Man" propaganda that they tried to brainwash the populace with.

He lived a very spartan lifestyle.

but if I remember correctly, according to his definitive biography (Anderson's), he DID actually beg for his life when captured by Bolivian troops assisted by the CIA.

having already been captured, and wounded, after he was informed by the CIA Cuban that he was going to be executed, he did meet death with honor.

[eamo]

[duke of new york]

I wonder if Che shirts been around long enough to be worn ironically, a la Wolf shirts?

[PatrickGHBusan]

[rollo]

I put the worship of no heros such as Che , dow as lack of education, and critical thinking But mucfh worse things are done than wearing a t shirt. It is no big deal.

Che was an elitist who wanted rule by a technocratic elite, he was a child of privledge and was in it for the power and the money.

Myer lansky who ran casinos in cuba under Batista, said his biggest problem with Che and fidel was that they wanted too big a cut of the action.

Now under the socialist hero Fidel, Cuba is famous as a destination for sex tourism. Castro bragged' we have the cleanest hookers in the Carribl
bean. Also a lot off child sex is available there now.

[Dude Love]

"People in combat surrender with ammo left over all the time!!"
-Yes, and some people fight to the bitter end.
"They all say he was proud and defiant until he was finally riddled by bullets while bound. His last words, according to his executioner were, "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward! You are only going to kill a man!"
-Anything he said under those circumstances is meaningless. He knew he'd die no matter what.
"Who told you socialists should live like monks?"
-I think they're supposed to spread the wealth more or less evenly.
"Just be honest with us and come out and say that you heard he said some homophobic stuff and now you're all hurt."
-Not hurt by that in particular, he was a racist and anti-Semite also. People should know who the bigot on their t-shirt was.
"The t-shirts are just an unthinking fashion."
-Yes, people with Che shirts don't think or else very few of them woudl wear them.
"If Che really wanted to live as a "champagne socialist" per Dude Love's description, he could've just stayed in Cuba as Fidel's right hand."
-Or maybe he had delusions of his prowess as a military leader and wanted to kill, which he did thousands of times w/o trial.
"he participated in a successful revolution (you can debate endlessly about what happened in Cuba next, but the revolution itself was undeniably successful) and then went on to attempt more revolutions in other oppressed countries."
-He never fought in a military victory.
"Che was hardly some mythical, perfect being of clear-cut morals, but the fact is that he died a guerrilla, not an aged dictator."
-so?
"He also represented resistance against imperialism"
-So does al Qaeda. If bin Laden were photogenic we might have seen his image on t-shirts in a few decades.
"Seriously, Kim Jong Il fought for his principles during WWII. Castro fought for his principles as well."
-Did you mean Kim Il Sung, who killed more Koreans than anyone who ever lived? As for Castro, I met around a dozen ethnic Cubans around the time he got sick and every single one wanted him to die or didn't care if he did.
"I neglected to mention maybe the most admirable thing about Che. He spent very little of his post-Cuban revolution life living it up in Havana. He mostly toured the world as a kind of ambassador as well as living in awful conditions in various South American and African countries as a revolutionary agitator."
-What a sweetie making the supreme sacrifice of travelling around as an ambassador. As far as being a revolutionary agitator, again, he never fought in a military victory.
"Che biographer Jon Lee Anderson reports Bolivian Sergeant Bernardino Huanca's account: that a twice wounded Guevara, his gun rendered useless, shouted "Do not shoot! I am Che Guevara and worth more to you alive than dead."

Would you call that begging for your life? I wouldn't."
-I would.
"Che held his head high, looked everyone straight in the eyes and asked only for something to smoke."
-Woopty doo. And it sounds like he was nervous.
"The thing to remember about Che is that a lot of people really really hated him because he did inspire a lot of oppressed people to revolt."
-I think the people who hate him most are the Cuban diaspora.
"I put the worship of no heros such as Che , dow as lack of education, and critical thinking But mucfh worse things are done than wearing a t shirt. It is no big deal. "
-sure
"Che was an elitist who wanted rule by a technocratic elite, he was a child of privledge and was in it for the power and the money."
-cool
"myer lansky who ran casinos in cuba under Batista, said his biggest problem with Che and fidel was that they wanted too big a cut of the action."
-I just met an ethnic Cuban a little while ago. His entire family finds the cult of Che and Fidel really silly and of course Batista was a douche too but according to my friend people were at least free under him. My friend's grandmother spend three years in prison for being a member of a Church group opposed to the robolution, her doctor husband spent a year in prision for being married to him and all hid doctor friends were shot. Che might of been a doc had he not been a drop out.
"Castro bragged' we have the cleanest hookers in the Carribl
bean. Also a lot off child sex is available there now."
-did he say that to his two maids or his BMW driver?

[rainism]

[DIsbell]

[rollo]

Child sex in Cuba?? Been mentioned in U.N reports and is pretty common knowledge. Italians cause prostitution in Cuba????? WTF Right Italians the / fleeing the raging cold of the Medditeranean.

Rainism; you are saying that every Cuban woman is a prostitute?????? The poiceforce runs the prosttution in cuba. Fidels gets a chunk of the money. y
young girls make the most money. Its just good marxisst Leninism , everyone does his or her part for the state.

[Dude Love]

"you wouldn't happen to be a Miami exilio or offspring of any, would you?"
-I'm not, but my views would be just as valid if I were.
"I'd wear a Che t shirt just to piss some righteous people off, because I like to piss off such people. If it angered general whiners and complainers, all the better."
-Then you're immature and hostile.
"I should really forget about any of that and just listen to a Christian complain about Che being a homophobe."
-Yes.

[northway]