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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
[q
If it were not racist, then we'd be hearing shipsecki and mongchongi being hurled from Korean to Korean. I've asked a few times now, when was the last time, in a public place, you've heard a korean instigate a verbal insult against another Korean? . |
I don't know about Steelrails but I've seen and heard it in quite a few places. Often (although not always) involving alcohol. And I know for certain I'm not the only poster who has witnessed altercations between Koreans...there was a thread on this about the shoving and slapping fights we usually see here as opposed to the full on brawl we might see back home.
My most memorable one was at a restaurant where this one Korean guy and the VP of my then-school got into a screaming match with each other...both were quite drunk. Lot of shoving, slapping and "shipseckis" hurled at each other. The other teachers kept trying to separate the two but the VP and the other guy kept slapping their hands away.
Another argument was over a parking spot. Neither one (in this case) appeared to be drunk but they were both getting pretty steamed. I don't recall what was said (this was my first year in Korea) but there was a bit of chest bumping and shoving.
Yet another one from 3 years ago was of two taxi drivers who had to be physically separated from each other by the other drivers. A couple of "shipseckis" were hurled in that instance. Don't know what they were fighting about though...came in on the tail end of that one.
Come on now you've been here for a long while, Are you telling us that you've never seen any such incidents? |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Crescent,
You are flailing about, getting more hyperbolic by the moment. You had some points, way back in the thread, and might have realistically argued them against Steelrails et al, but with each exchange, you get more emotive and less rational, and are trying to create exclusive dichotomies where a spectrum of possibiliities exist.
Racism exists in Korea, and is indeed a problem, but many of the problems that you use as examples could just as readily be explained by other factors...as has been pointed out by Steelrails et al. Teachers encounter all of the school problems you mentioned -- these are TEACHING problems, and while race may conflate some of the problems, it is not the primary cause of the problems.
Telling someone to slap himself, if done in person between folks that are angry already, will indeed start a fight most of the time. It is incongruent enough to get past the normal "shrug it off" reaction of a simple "f you."
Koreans use bad language to each other pretty frequently, and in public. The trick is that you need to go to places where Koreans interact with Koreans, rather than to "expat" areas where Koreans primarily interact with foreigners.
In the 12+ years I have been in Korea, I've been in many bars where I was the only white face, and I have only once had a negative encounter with race-based aggression. In bars with more foreigners, I have had the problem more often. In the US, I have had the problem more often. The folks that cause the trouble go to places where they get to cause the trouble -- ever heard the phrase "lookin' for a fight?" People do that -- people of all races.
In the single instance I mentioned above, the people around us in the bar immediately leapt to my defense, and several of the guy's friends apologized to me in Korean and in English ("Sorry! Sorry!"). One guy explained that his friend was normally a decent guy, but was just being an idiot at the moment, and that he hoped I wouldn't judge Koreans based on this one idiot's actions. I assured him I wouldn't, and I don't. There are idiots everywhere.
I've had kids call me names on the street. I have kids make deep, formal bows to me on the street. I have had groups of teenagers yell "puck you!" and I have had that same group of teenagers turn on the person shouting obscenities at me, and literally punch and kick him to the ground, while yelling "Sorry! Sorry!" to me (as I turned to go talk to the boy). It wasn't a true beating -- they were putting on a show for me, and the boy getting beaten probably wasn't hurt THAT much, but it demonstrates awareness, and that this activity is a minority action, not a norm.
Ditch the hyperbole -- keep it real, and rational.... |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
[q
If it were not racist, then we'd be hearing shipsecki and mongchongi being hurled from Korean to Korean. I've asked a few times now, when was the last time, in a public place, you've heard a korean instigate a verbal insult against another Korean? . |
I don't know about Steelrails but I've seen and heard it in quite a few places. Often (although not always) involving alcohol. And I know for certain I'm not the only poster who has witnessed altercations between Koreans...there was a thread on this about the shoving and slapping fights we usually see here as opposed to the full on brawl we might see back home.
My most memorable one was at a restaurant where this one Korean guy and the VP of my then-school got into a screaming match with each other...both were quite drunk. Lot of shoving, slapping and "shipseckis" hurled at each other. The other teachers kept trying to separate the two but the VP and the other guy kept slapping their hands away.
Another argument was over a parking spot. Neither one (in this case) appeared to be drunk but they were both getting pretty steamed. I don't recall what was said (this was my first year in Korea) but there was a bit of chest bumping and shoving.
Yet another one from 3 years ago was of two taxi drivers who had to be physically separated from each other by the other drivers. A couple of "shipseckis" were hurled in that instance. Don't know what they were fighting about though...came in on the tail end of that one.
Come on now you've been here for a long while, Are you telling us that you've never seen any such incidents? |
So which one of these incidents involve Koreans who are unfamiliar with each other or don't have some sort of dispute? In your location it says you are a Reading Comprehension teacher, but it seems you missed the part where I said 'for no reason other than just being there".
Of course I've seen arguments and fights between Koreans. But I have never seen a Korean shout obscenities at another Korean for no reason other than they are in the same area. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Crescent,
You are flailing about, getting more hyperbolic by the moment. You had some points, way back in the thread, and might have realistically argued them against Steelrails et al, but with each exchange, you get more emotive and less rational, and are trying to create exclusive dichotomies where a spectrum of possibiliities exist.
Racism exists in Korea, and is indeed a problem, but many of the problems that you use as examples could just as readily be explained by other factors...as has been pointed out by Steelrails et al. Teachers encounter all of the school problems you mentioned -- these are TEACHING problems, and while race may conflate some of the problems, it is not the primary cause of the problems.
Telling someone to slap himself, if done in person between folks that are angry already, will indeed start a fight most of the time. It is incongruent enough to get past the normal "shrug it off" reaction of a simple "f you."
Koreans use bad language to each other pretty frequently, and in public. The trick is that you need to go to places where Koreans interact with Koreans, rather than to "expat" areas where Koreans primarily interact with foreigners.
In the 12+ years I have been in Korea, I've been in many bars where I was the only white face, and I have only once had a negative encounter with race-based aggression. In bars with more foreigners, I have had the problem more often. In the US, I have had the problem more often. The folks that cause the trouble go to places where they get to cause the trouble -- ever heard the phrase "lookin' for a fight?" People do that -- people of all races.
In the single instance I mentioned above, the people around us in the bar immediately leapt to my defense, and several of the guy's friends apologized to me in Korean and in English ("Sorry! Sorry!"). One guy explained that his friend was normally a decent guy, but was just being an idiot at the moment, and that he hoped I wouldn't judge Koreans based on this one idiot's actions. I assured him I wouldn't, and I don't. There are idiots everywhere.
I've had kids call me names on the street. I have kids make deep, formal bows to me on the street. I have had groups of teenagers yell "puck you!" and I have had that same group of teenagers turn on the person shouting obscenities at me, and literally punch and kick him to the ground, while yelling "Sorry! Sorry!" to me (as I turned to go talk to the boy). It wasn't a true beating -- they were putting on a show for me, and the boy getting beaten probably wasn't hurt THAT much, but it demonstrates awareness, and that this activity is a minority action, not a norm.
Ditch the hyperbole -- keep it real, and rational.... |
I don't believe I said every case was a result of racism. Any perceived hyperbole is intended to draw attention to the misrepresentations made by Steel. He seems to rely on fabricating conclusions and putting words in the mouths of others.
The bottom line is that in 10+ years, I have never heard Koreans shout obscenities to each other unless they are familiar with each other in some way, or have some sort of dispute.
That said, I think you need to go back and make sure I actually said what you think I said, because I don't believe I mentioned any school problems at all.
I have been speaking fluent Korean for about 3-4 years, and before that could understand quite a bit. I am married to a Korean, and I am no stranger to bars, events, or other places that are frequented only by Koreans.
Yes there have been instances where I have been treated very well by Koreans, but there have been far far more where I have experienced, witnessed, overheard, or heard of others being verbally abused or insulted for no reason.
I have also seen many instances where Koreans treat each other very well, so why is it so hard for me to see Koreans verbally insult each other based on appearance or any other reason other than just being in the same place?
You said it yourself, racism is a problem here.
And by the way, you don't know the exact situation surrounding the 'you need to slap yourself' comment. There was a clear sarcastic / facetious tone, and we were not addressing each other for the first time. Sure, some people would be offended if certain parameters were involved. What I found hilarious was that it was in some rulebook of manly offences, and every man would take them as fighting words. Talk about hyperbole.
Last edited by crescent on Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Have fun with that one. |
No no, don't water it down... you said ALL men know this rule. According to you men in general would think it's a call for a fight. Let's get this straight, so now this rule that ALL men know, is really only for you, Charlie Murphy, and arguments about sports in Detroit.
I've spent my fair share of weekends in Detroit, because I lived in Windsor. You, sir... are full of it.
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Really, where did you hang out in the D?
I'm full of it?
Willing to bet your life on this argument over slapping? Want to stroll through Houston-Whittier and argue with someone there and tell them to go slap themselves?
No, you are the one that is full of it because we all know that you'd never do that. You know what reaction that kind of reaction would bring on.
Still waiting for your "Go slap yourself" poll/thread.
| Quote: |
| Of course I've seen arguments and fights between Koreans. But I have never seen a Korean shout obscenities at another Korean for no reason other than they are in the same area |
Really? You've never seen teenage Korean girls yell insults and obscenities at random "ugly" girls passing by? You've never seen princesses make blindingly rude comments on other girls' fashion choices?
You've never seen ajosshis make comments as some young dude strolls by in an arrogant manner? |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, keep on this Steelrails. Every man, yes... every man IS DETROIT. They are making a movie out of it. Yeah, keep trying. So much for not letting things bother you. Why are you getting so freaked out? I know the internet is a rough place...and so is Detroit. I used to get my manly groove on in the underground scene back in the late 90's. What do you want, addresses to prove it?
No, I have never, ever seen girls who are unfamiliar with each other verbally assault each other. Quite odd that something so obvious is just occurring to you right now, isn't it? Must have slipped your mind in the midst of having to consult that rule book of yours so much.
Rude comments (despite the fact that they are extremely rarely heard by the subject) are not the same as shouting obscenities, are they? Stop making things up as you go along. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
Yes, keep on this Steelrails. Every man, yes... every man IS DETROIT. They are making a movie out of it. Yeah, keep trying. So much for not letting things bother you. Why are you getting so freaked out? I know the internet is a rough place...and so is Detroit. I used to get my manly groove on in the underground scene back in the late 90's. What do you want, addresses to prove it?
No, I have never, ever seen girls who are unfamiliar with each other verbally assault each other. Quite odd that something so obvious is just occurring to you right now, isn't it? Must have slipped your mind in the midst of having to consult that rule book of yours so much.
Rude comments (despite the fact that they are extremely rarely heard by the subject) are not the same as shouting obscenities, are they? Stop making things up as you go along. |
Crescent,
Um...perhaps you only NOTICE the things that seem to be directed toward you? I mean, if you understand Korean well enough to know when bad words are being used, and you have walked around ANYWHERE that large groups of younger folks appear, without parents or other authority figures, then you would have ample opportunity to hear such things. I hear bad language being used by Koreans toward other Koreans ALL THE TIME. Like, pretty much any time I am in a public place for more than a few hours. Some of it is probably friends using it toward friends, and some of it is not...but if you have NEVER, EVER heard it, and you have been here for years...then I suspect you are not listening. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Of course I've heard Koreans talking ABOUT each other, but it's hard to say when if ever those comments were actually heard by the subject.
And again you said it, except i'd use the term 'always' when referring to shouted, or loud public insults being directed towards acquaintances.
Listening to other peoples conversations is one of the ways I learned the language and continue to maintain it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
[q
If it were not racist, then we'd be hearing shipsecki and mongchongi being hurled from Korean to Korean. I've asked a few times now, when was the last time, in a public place, you've heard a korean instigate a verbal insult against another Korean? . |
I don't know about Steelrails but I've seen and heard it in quite a few places. Often (although not always) involving alcohol. And I know for certain I'm not the only poster who has witnessed altercations between Koreans...there was a thread on this about the shoving and slapping fights we usually see here as opposed to the full on brawl we might see back home.
My most memorable one was at a restaurant where this one Korean guy and the VP of my then-school got into a screaming match with each other...both were quite drunk. Lot of shoving, slapping and "shipseckis" hurled at each other. The other teachers kept trying to separate the two but the VP and the other guy kept slapping their hands away.
Another argument was over a parking spot. Neither one (in this case) appeared to be drunk but they were both getting pretty steamed. I don't recall what was said (this was my first year in Korea) but there was a bit of chest bumping and shoving.
Yet another one from 3 years ago was of two taxi drivers who had to be physically separated from each other by the other drivers. A couple of "shipseckis" were hurled in that instance. Don't know what they were fighting about though...came in on the tail end of that one.
Come on now you've been here for a long while, Are you telling us that you've never seen any such incidents? |
So which one of these incidents involve Koreans who are unfamiliar with each other or don't have some sort of dispute? In your location it says you are a Reading Comprehension teacher, but it seems you missed the part where I said 'for no reason other than just being there".
. |
Well, I was focusing more on the part of your quote where you said
| Quote: |
| "If it were not racist, then we'd be hearing shipsecki and mongchongi being hurled from Korean to Korean." |
The point is that reason or no reason aside this kind of language is sometimes used by Koreans to other Koreans. (as at least three people have said now) So yes I'm not seeing the racism there. Nor far as I can see is anybody else. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The point is that reason or no reason aside this kind of language is sometimes used by Koreans to other Koreans. (as at least three people have said now) So yes I'm not seeing the racism there. Nor far as I can see is anybody else. |
So, what you're saying is you teach selective comprehension?
I see, so just using obscene language is the same as directing it to insult someone in public?
Interesting.
Last edited by crescent on Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| As good as this one is...it doesn't come close to the troll thread about the guy slapping a Korean in the bum with a towel!! That one was epic! |
Link to the thread, please. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
[q
| Quote: |
| Of course I've seen arguments and fights between Koreans. But I have never seen a Korean shout obscenities at another Korean for no reason other than they are in the same area |
Really? You've never seen teenage Korean girls yell insults and obscenities at random "ugly" girls passing by? You've never seen princesses make blindingly rude comments on other girls' fashion choices?
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Anyone who's taught in Korea for any length of time knows that certain students sometimes bully other students by making nasty comments or worse (more on this later) And that holds true even if the other student was sitting there quietly and not doing anything untoward. I've seen it happen more than once over the years and while admittedly not familiar with the history (if any) between them I rather doubt that every single victim did something first to earn the bully's ire. As a teacher I stamped that out fairly quickly but couldn't do anything about what may have happened after class.
In fact bullying at my last school ( a middle school) was a real problem. I once walked into school to see no less than seven students kneeling in the hallway writing stuff in their notebooks. When I asked the co-teacher about it it turns out these kids got picked on by some high school kids (had money and personal items taken).
But instead of reporting it, they went down the road to the elementary school and did the same thing to some elementary kids. So the kids went home and complained to their parents who called my school.
So the culprits ended up in the hallway, writing a "confession" And this wasn't a one time thing either. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The point is that reason or no reason aside this kind of language is sometimes used by Koreans to other Koreans. (as at least three people have said now) So yes I'm not seeing the racism there. Nor far as I can see is anybody else. |
So, what you're saying is you teach selective comprehension?
I see, so just using obscene language is the same as directing it to insult someone in public?
Interesting. |
Except I didn't say that. Perhaps it is just your selective reading. I pointed out that the use of obscene language being used to other Koreans WAS insulting them in public. At least in the cases I witnessed. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The point is that reason or no reason aside this kind of language is sometimes used by Koreans to other Koreans. (as at least three people have said now) So yes I'm not seeing the racism there. Nor far as I can see is anybody else. |
So, what you're saying is you teach selective comprehension?
I see, so just using obscene language is the same as directing it to insult someone in public?
Interesting. |
Except I didn't say that. Perhaps it is just your selective reading. |
I'm not a reading comprehension teacher, so I may make small mistakes. You said reason being not an issue, koreans use bad language to other koreans. Therefore you don't see any racism. So, if reason is aside, the two uses of bad language must be the same.
If i got that wrong, explain. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
[q
| Quote: |
| Of course I've seen arguments and fights between Koreans. But I have never seen a Korean shout obscenities at another Korean for no reason other than they are in the same area |
Really? You've never seen teenage Korean girls yell insults and obscenities at random "ugly" girls passing by? You've never seen princesses make blindingly rude comments on other girls' fashion choices?
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Anyone who's taught in Korea for any length of time knows that certain students sometimes bully other students by making nasty comments or worse (more on this later) And that holds true even if the other student was sitting there quietly and not doing anything untoward. I've seen it happen more than once over the years and while admittedly not familiar with the history (if any) between them I rather doubt that every single victim did something first to earn the bully's ire. As a teacher I stamped that out fairly quickly but couldn't do anything about what may have happened after class.
In fact bullying at my last school ( a middle school) was a real problem. I once walked into school to see no less than seven students kneeling in the hallway writing stuff in their notebooks. When I asked the co-teacher about it it turns out these kids got picked on by some high school kids (had money and personal items taken).
But instead of reporting it, they went down the road to the elementary school and did the same thing to some elementary kids. So the kids went home and complained to their parents who called my school.
So the culprits ended up in the hallway, writing a "confession" And this wasn't a one time thing either. |
So now you're on to bullying? C'mon now. |
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