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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Dude, komerican is a troll. Anytime somebody criticizes Korea in anyway, the only argument he has is that it happens elsewhere. Using that logic nobody should ever criticize anything ever, since nobody is perfect.
There's a murder? Pfft, there are murders everywhere! Why should Koreans complain about the Japanese occupation when the Jews had it even worse? Like they know what its like to be oppressed. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
[q
Urbanmyth stated that the majority of foreigners would be admitted to a sauna. I believe that. That would indicate a majority of Koreans are accepting enough to admit foreigners to a sauna. Yet, there hasn't been enough of an outrage to have laws regarding racism against foreigners or mixed Koreans, and that's why the sauna owner was able to do that.
. |
This. Over the years we've had plenty of threads about saunas. Now someone could have been refused before, but this is the first time I recall it.
Most of the bad experiences (if I remember correctly) were of people groping them or staring at them...not outright refusal to let them in.
So this particular sauna's owner's attitude does not sound like a majority view. |
Who said that the majority of Koreans have the same backwards view of AIDs? I would say it's probably a problem amongst a minority of people who believe that the ills that beset Korea are from foreign sources, and one cannot say this view isn't prevalent enough in some form or another.
I don't disagree that the majority of sauna owners would accept foreigners. The point being made was that prejudicial ideas vis-a-vis foreigners in terms of how they are treated and how the law protects them is a concern. I think you agree with that. It's not about the majority of Koreans or people of any nationality. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
You read some of these posts and you'd think Martin Luther King died an old man surrounded by friends and family instead of being 6 feet under from a bullet through his head. And now we have the Confucian and Prostitution cards being played and it's only a matter of time before eating dogs gets brought up.  What makes Westerners qualified to lecture to Koreans about racism? I'll never understand that one.  |
Because this is an issue that even apologists recognize needs to be remedied if for no other reason than Korea's economic well-being and the rights of Korean citizens?
This is not an issue of foreigners or westerners imposing values on Korea. This is an issue of a Korean citizen standing up for her rights as a Korean citizen. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| You read some of these posts and you'd think Martin Luther King died an old man surrounded by friends and family instead of being 6 feet under from a bullet through his head. And now we have the Confucian and Prostitution cards being played and it's only a matter of time before eating dogs gets brought up. What makes Westerners qualified to lecture to Koreans about racism? I'll never understand that one. |
How about you ask that same question only this time replace a few words as in "What makes Korean qualified enough to assume so many things about foreigners?"
that would be the day wouldnt it? lol |
Are you referring to the assumptions Koreans have made hiring tens of thousands of foreign English teachers to teach their children English? |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| You read some of these posts and you'd think Martin Luther King died an old man surrounded by friends and family instead of being 6 feet under from a bullet through his head. And now we have the Confucian and Prostitution cards being played and it's only a matter of time before eating dogs gets brought up. What makes Westerners qualified to lecture to Koreans about racism? I'll never understand that one. |
Because this is an issue that even apologists recognize needs to be remedied if for no other reason than Korea's economic well-being and the rights of Korean citizens?
This is not an issue of foreigners or westerners imposing values on Korea. This is an issue of a Korean citizen standing up for her rights as a Korean citizen. |
I support her. I hope she wins her case before the HRC. I'm just saying that it's a bit pat to assume racism in Korea is the same as racism in the West. There are just too many differences in demography and history, differences that are completely ignored whenever issues like this occur as people rush to pile on.
Take for example, the prejudicial view that countries that have anti-discrimination laws based on race are more progressive. This is an absurd bias, which you�ve also pointed out earlier in this thread, and actually discriminates against countries that have no history of colonialism, the international slave trade, or are more geographically isolated, such as Korea. There are many other biases and the almost comical result is you have some Westerners projecting their notions of racism onto Koreans using a context that is completely alien to Korea. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
To those who say "boycotts would happen" or "this would never happen back home"
Two words: Association Football.
Seriously, as long as THAT culture persists with all of its jingoism and tendency for violence, lectures on Korea's bigotry and conduct ring more than a little hollow.
Frankly, I think if England wants to be considered a "modern, developed nation" the people of it shouldn't do things like have massive violence over 22 people chasing a ball.
Oh but that's right "our football culture is special, please try to understand."
That apologist "look in the mirror blast" aside, Korea needs to fast-track this type of legislation so it can ensure it being part of the global economy. |
complete utter rubbish. same old posters, same old dogmatic, unfounded rubbish. Leopard, spots and all that. |
Seconded. Absolute nonsense of the first degree.
I dont know why North Americans appear to be singling the UK out for racism. Britain is generally regarded as the most racially tolerant of European countries. We dont have anything like the race problems the US has, black president aside. Really bizarre views. England was also the first country to abolish the slave trade. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
To those who say "boycotts would happen" or "this would never happen back home"
Two words: Association Football.
Seriously, as long as THAT culture persists with all of its jingoism and tendency for violence, lectures on Korea's bigotry and conduct ring more than a little hollow.
Frankly, I think if England wants to be considered a "modern, developed nation" the people of it shouldn't do things like have massive violence over 22 people chasing a ball.
Oh but that's right "our football culture is special, please try to understand."
That apologist "look in the mirror blast" aside, Korea needs to fast-track this type of legislation so it can ensure it being part of the global economy. |
complete utter rubbish. same old posters, same old dogmatic, unfounded rubbish. Leopard, spots and all that. |
Seconded. Absolute nonsense of the first degree.
I dont know why North Americans appear to be singling the UK out for racism. Britain is generally regarded as the most racially tolerant of European countries. We dont have anything like the race problems the US has, black president aside. Really bizarre views. England was also the first country to abolish the slave trade. |
Good response but saying "Britain is generally regarded as the most racially tolerant of European countries" is a bit like saying in the 1920s, 30s and 40s that "Mississippi is generally regarded as the most racially tolerant of Southern States". 
Not exactly comparing from a bassin of openess and racial acceptance there....
As for he legistlation in Korea and the point about being part of the global economy....
Sure the legistlation would be nice however you may have missed it but Korea IS and HAS BEEN part of the global economy for a while there sitting at 13th-10th world economy (lower sometimes when there isb a slowdown). As a prime example of the no-link between anti-discrimination laws and membership in the global economy, check out China's record on Human Rights and there economic standing as a global economic player....just sayin. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
To those who say "boycotts would happen" or "this would never happen back home"
Two words: Association Football.
Seriously, as long as THAT culture persists with all of its jingoism and tendency for violence, lectures on Korea's bigotry and conduct ring more than a little hollow.
Frankly, I think if England wants to be considered a "modern, developed nation" the people of it shouldn't do things like have massive violence over 22 people chasing a ball.
Oh but that's right "our football culture is special, please try to understand."
That apologist "look in the mirror blast" aside, Korea needs to fast-track this type of legislation so it can ensure it being part of the global economy. |
complete utter rubbish. same old posters, same old dogmatic, unfounded rubbish. Leopard, spots and all that. |
[/quote]
So you claim that fights and hooliganism over 22 people chasing a ball is not a part of English sporting culture?
To me that seems pretty backwards behavior, unworthy of a modern nation.
But as I said, "Our culture is special, please try to understand." |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
It's all fine and dandy unless of course NO businesses will serve you. |
Here's my take. First, we're not in a situation where no business well serve foreigners. Foreigners can go somewhere they will be served. The racism here is bad in my opinion, but its not that bad.
Even if were that bad, I don't think Government coercion can erdicate racism. Do you really want to be served by people who hated you so much for your skin color they won't let you in, but they're doing it grudgingly because they're forced to? I wouldn't. I've been to places in the US where people will stare at me and maybe make snide comments and I wouldn't eat there or use their services. They didn't refuse me but they'd probably spit in my food or something.
Governments can't order people not to be racist. Race in the US is still issue even after all the government did. Real changes are made through education and awareness and time. This lady in the article might not have been so stupid if somebody taught her that AIDS aren't transmitted through hot tubs and being a different color doesn't mean you have AIDS. The government shouldn't punish her for a lack of education. You can't force people to all sudden be open-minded and tolerant when so much focus in education and the media is on ethnic purity and the greatness of our cultural identity. Instead, we should seek to enlighten people instead of coercing them to accept our beliefs.
Also, some people claim Korea policing racism is a step toward globalization. Punishing small private business owners is not a step toward globalization, it's a step toward totalitarianism and hypocrisy. If globalization was truly the goal, they would let people of different ethinic backgrounds in government positions. No, this discrimination law is just a cop out for politicians to look like they're doing something but the only thing that'll happen is that small private business owners who have never been taught any better are going to be turned into sacrificial lambs. For the sake of "globalization." Instead of following into the footsteps of socialist Europe, Korea should show the world that people here don't are truly accepting of different people, because that's who we are, not because we're forced to. It'll take a long time of course but I believe that's where we should be headed. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| [ If globalization was truly the goal, they would let people of different ethinic backgrounds in government positions. . |
They would have to be Korean citizens first to run for office...like most other countries. And they'd have to be able to speak Korean fluently in order to campaign effectively.
And there are just aren't that many foreigners who fit the criteria...let alone foreigners who are interested in running for office. Heck out of the more than one million foreigners here less than 1% are eligible to vote. According to Wiki:
| Quote: |
| Revisions to voting laws in 2005 allow foreign nationals aged 19 years and older who have lived in South Korea for more than three years after obtaining permanent resident visas to vote in local elections. 6,746 foreign residents (out of more than 1 million) were eligible to vote in the May 31, 2006 local elections.[83] |
that's something like .5% of the foreigners here. A half percentage point of a minority. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
| [ If globalization was truly the goal, they would let people of different ethinic backgrounds in government positions. . |
They would have to be Korean citizens first to run for office...like most other countries. And they'd have to be able to speak Korean fluently in order to campaign effectively.
And there are just aren't that many foreigners who fit the criteria...let alone foreigners who are interested in running for office. Heck out of the more than one million foreigners here less than 1% are eligible to vote. According to Wiki:
| Quote: |
| Revisions to voting laws in 2005 allow foreign nationals aged 19 years and older who have lived in South Korea for more than three years after obtaining permanent resident visas to vote in local elections. 6,746 foreign residents (out of more than 1 million) were eligible to vote in the May 31, 2006 local elections.[83] |
that's something like .5% of the foreigners here. A half percentage point of a minority. |
I agree with what you wrote. It takes time for foreigners who are Korean citizens to be assimilated in enough numbers and for enough of them to speak the language well enough to do so. There are exceptions, though. There was a Finnish-Japanese fellow who I believe was raised in Japan, was a Japanese citizen, and he became a Japanese member of parliament. Maybe, such a thing could happen soon in Nam-Han.
This was back in 2002. So one of you foreign teachers can make the attempt. Learn more Korean and run for office. As far as the guy who said that the law has nothing to do with eradicating racism, I have the words "Eisenhow and Little Rock, Arkansas".
Japan's Blue-Eyed Politician
Debora Kuan
World Press Review assistant editor
Marutei Tsurunen, a naturalized Japanese citizen from Finland, smiles as he shows a pin as a member of Japanese Upper House at the National Diet in Tokyo Feb. 8, 2002 (Photo: AFP).
It took four attempts�and four defeats�in Japan�s parliamentary elections, but in February, Marutei Tsurunen�a naturalized Japanese citizen of Finnish heritage�finally won his seat in the Diet. The victory, which would have been unthinkable for any gaijin 20 years ago, makes Tsurunen, 61, the first Caucasian lawmaker in Japan.
Tsurunen, who was born Martti Turunen, first went to Japan from Finland as a Lutheran missionary in 1967. He worked at an orphanage for several years and then became an English teacher, Finnish translator of Japanese literature, and author. But it was not until he met and married a Japanese woman that he decided to spend the rest of his life in Japan and, consequently, to seek citizenship.
Emulating Lafcadio Hearn, a Greek-Irish writer and journalist who went to Japan in 1890 and became a Japanese citizen and renowned interpreter of Japanese culture to the West, Tsurunen wrote a book, I Want to Be Japanese. But his attempts to adopt this new identity resulted only in frustration. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
It's all fine and dandy unless of course NO businesses will serve you. |
Here's my take. First, we're not in a situation where no business well serve foreigners. Foreigners can go somewhere they will be served. The racism here is bad in my opinion, but its not that bad.
Even if were that bad, I don't think Government coercion can erdicate racism. Do you really want to be served by people who hated you so much for your skin color they won't let you in, but they're doing it grudgingly because they're forced to? I wouldn't. I've been to places in the US where people will stare at me and maybe make snide comments and I wouldn't eat there or use their services. They didn't refuse me but they'd probably spit in my food or something.
Governments can't order people not to be racist. Race in the US is still issue even after all the government did. Real changes are made through education and awareness and time. This lady in the article might not have been so stupid if somebody taught her that AIDS aren't transmitted through hot tubs and being a different color doesn't mean you have AIDS. The government shouldn't punish her for a lack of education. You can't force people to all sudden be open-minded and tolerant when so much focus in education and the media is on ethnic purity and the greatness of our cultural identity. Instead, we should seek to enlighten people instead of coercing them to accept our beliefs.
Also, some people claim Korea policing racism is a step toward globalization. Punishing small private business owners is not a step toward globalization, it's a step toward totalitarianism and hypocrisy. If globalization was truly the goal, they would let people of different ethinic backgrounds in government positions. No, this discrimination law is just a cop out for politicians to look like they're doing something but the only thing that'll happen is that small private business owners who have never been taught any better are going to be turned into sacrificial lambs. For the sake of "globalization." Instead of following into the footsteps of socialist Europe, Korea should show the world that people here don't are truly accepting of different people, because that's who we are, not because we're forced to. It'll take a long time of course but I believe that's where we should be headed. |
You can't force people to be open-minded but you can force them to treat others equally. It took federal legislation in the U.S. to give blacks, women, the handicapped, etc. equal opportunity in education and employment. The strides that minorities have made in the U.S. are very real and they would not have happened without government intervention.
Education is a part of it, but is by no means a panacea. Just take a look at how many people believe the earth is 600 years old or that Obama isn't a US citizen or that fluoride in the water is a government plot to do this, that or something nefarious.
So education can be, and is, ignored. But forcing you to co-exist with others gives you a chance to learn the other person isn't the hell spawn you've been taught they are. (Unless the other person in question is Glenn Beck.)
As for globalization, I'm with you there. Do the right thing because it's right. That's more than enough reason. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
It's all fine and dandy unless of course NO businesses will serve you. |
Here's my take. First, we're not in a situation where no business well serve foreigners. Foreigners can go somewhere they will be served. The racism here is bad in my opinion, but its not that bad.
Even if were that bad, I don't think Government coercion can erdicate racism. Do you really want to be served by people who hated you so much for your skin color they won't let you in, but they're doing it grudgingly because they're forced to? I wouldn't. I've been to places in the US where people will stare at me and maybe make snide comments and I wouldn't eat there or use their services. They didn't refuse me but they'd probably spit in my food or something.
Governments can't order people not to be racist. Race in the US is still issue even after all the government did. Real changes are made through education and awareness and time. This lady in the article might not have been so stupid if somebody taught her that AIDS aren't transmitted through hot tubs and being a different color doesn't mean you have AIDS. The government shouldn't punish her for a lack of education. You can't force people to all sudden be open-minded and tolerant when so much focus in education and the media is on ethnic purity and the greatness of our cultural identity. Instead, we should seek to enlighten people instead of coercing them to accept our beliefs.
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Sorry, but this needs correction, and I'm afraid this might be an instance where you lack expertise about US history. Two major developments, both of them government "coercions", have played a major role in the ongoing process of ameliorating racism: integration of the military and integration of schools. You may be quick to point out that those a public institutions, but they are still nonetheless examples of the government "ordering" people not to be racist. The changes weren't overnight, but great strides have been made.
In respect to the private sector, non-discrimination laws for service and hiring practices have undoubtedly made a difference. You might call it "punishing small business owners" at the time, but the plain reality today is that a person of color can be served at any restaurant in the country. They might get a sneer, but that's a million miles away from the routine denials of service and violence we saw not more than 50-60 years ago. What punishes small businesses, whether they realize it or not, is artificially restricting their clientele through racist practices.
You're right that education is key, but how does a government educate someone beyond the age of 18? You put them in a situation where they must interact with the "other" and then, more often than you'd think, backwards attitudes are corrected. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I'll throw something out here for battling racism: Spectator Sports. Certainly integration there had a huge impact on racial attitudes. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Just saying that it's not helpful to make comparisons without reference to various historical events. For example, in your example, it took the US centuries to grant civil rights to all its citizens whereas Korea gave full civil rights a lot faster. So according to the ahistorical "reasoning� of some posters here Korean culture seems to be more amenable to democratic ideals!. Trying to impose Western notions of racism on Koreans without referring to historical differences is just as silly and is actually a bit like propaganda.
| flakfizer wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| What makes Westerners qualified to lecture to Koreans about racism? I'll never understand that one. |
Maybe I can help you with that one. But first, we'll have to define a few terms. What do you mean by "lecture to Koreans?" I ask because this site isn't really an open letter to Koreans but a message board for ESL teachers mostly talking amongst themselves. Also, I see more observing and complaining rather than "lecturing."
Also, what do you mean by "Westerners?" Do you mean people born, raised and educated in western countries? Or are you using the term "westerner" as a substitute for "white folks?"
Finally, does the passage of time not come into play at all? I mean, is it equally hard for you to understand why "westerners" would sing the praises of democracy and free elections when they didn't have them either at one point in time? |
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