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toadkillerdog
Joined: 11 Nov 2009
Location: Daejeon. ROK
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The world will be a better, though less interesting, place without M.Q. I'm kinda gonna miss that crazy bastard. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
What exactly did you tell us? |
That it was a bullshit propaganda piece
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| To the best of my knowledge no excavation has been performed yet...so you might want to wait for actual proof before gloating. The rebels are reportedly waiting for foreign forensic specialists. |
To dig a hole? I doubt it. Get it through your head- it was propaganda like most of the garbage we have been reading about Libya. And all to justify the unjustifiable- premeditated mass murder. What we have done in Libya is precisely what they hung the Nazis for in Nuremburg. If we applied the same standard to us as them Obama, Sarkosky, Cameron, and even our own little imperialist wannabe Harper would have nooses around their neck. There is no warcrime greater than what we have done here.
The whole purpose of that article and all the other nonsense about Libyan mass graves has been to pump up the Nazi moral justification calculus (ie because they had concentration camps and gas chambers anything we did - including incinerating the populations of entire cities, was ok and even laudable in comparison).
We always invoke this type of calculus when intentionally committing war crimes and atrocities against other peoples (ie bombing Libya back into the stone age, wiping Sirte almost entirely off the map, etc, etc.) When the other side isn't horrific enough to justify the horrors we have inflicted the answer is easy - just make shit up. Once the war is over and the people who could contradict your narrative are dead (notice we don't like to do trials anymore), well, too bad. Once you've had the war what difference does it make if your rationale turns out to have been a pack of lies? Just ask George.
Whatever crimes Gaddafi has committed over his 42 year reign pale in comparison to what NATO and the motley group of royalists, Islamists and bought and paid for Western stooges have done to this country and the damage that will continue to be inflicted by the destruction of the state, the theft of its resources, and the enslavement of its population. In the end he will go down as a hero in Africa and our reputation will be just as sweet, as, say, Ghingis Khan's is.
Is there no lie too big, no atrocity too shocking, no hypocrisy too glaring for us to swallow? Apparently not. Hello Syria, Iran, and Lebanon- your days as organized and independent countries are numbered, and God knows who will be next after. Evil days indeed. |
Thanks for telling it like it is.
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Precisely the same criminal act as the Nazis? So we committed industrialized genocide in Libya?
This proposition cannot be taken seriously. |
Is it really acceptable and that much better to incinerate masses of people by bombing than by throwing them in ovens? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
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| Qadhafi killed in crossfire |
I believe this to be propaganda. The rebels most likely murdered him on the spot. |
It may well be propaganda but it's not nearly on the same scale of offensiveness as ersatzredux's post. Probably contains more truth overall too. |
It seems rather apparent that it was not NATO that killed Qaddafi because he had a bullet wound to the head, and that is not caused by bombing a convoy. He was apparently trying to surrender and was shot in the head, and they forced him to walk while he was seriously wounded and bleeding instead of getting him medical care. The way Qaddafi was dealt with, despite what I thought of the man, was unacceptable, and he was stripped somewhat of his clothing while people were jumping up and down. These rebels were able to do all this only because of NATO's intervention. The leadership should have given clear instructions that they are not to kill Qaddafi intentionally. He was murdered.
I can understand arguing that NATO did kill innocent people. Wouldn't Qaddafi have murdered many people had he crushed the rebellion? However, it's not clear that the UN resolution gave them a green light to do what they did. They were only supposed to stop the rebels from being attacked, not attack Qaddafi and target his people intentionally. That's what the Russians understood and the Chinese before endorsing the UN resolution, and NATO will use this for financial aggrandizement understandably. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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This summary capture and execution on the spot with neither charges nor trial is all too reminiscent of what happened with bin Laden. It is very sad to see the death of democratic ideals (e.g., a trial before punishment) in the face of all this. Not a good omen for the beginning of the new Libyan state.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Qadhafi killed in crossfire |
I believe this to be propaganda. The rebels most likely murdered him on the spot. |
It may well be propaganda but it's not nearly on the same scale of offensiveness as ersatzredux's post. Probably contains more truth overall too. |
A bullet in the head after both legs had been shot. You call that "killed in the crossfire"??? Yeah, lots of truth in that.  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
This summary capture and execution on the spot with neither charges nor trial is all too reminiscent of what happened with bin Laden. It is very sad to see the death of democratic ideals (e.g., a trial before punishment) in the face of all this. Not a good omen for the beginning of the new Libyan state.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Qadhafi killed in crossfire |
I believe this to be propaganda. The rebels most likely murdered him on the spot. |
It may well be propaganda but it's not nearly on the same scale of offensiveness as ersatzredux's post. Probably contains more truth overall too. |
A bullet in the head after both legs had been shot. You call that "killed in the crossfire"??? Yeah, lots of truth in that. |
If Gaddafi's convoy was destroyed, I doubt there would have been many Gaddafi supporters putting up a fight and shooting him in a cross fire.
I don't believe the claims of the NTC. As much as I don't like him, I believe he was murdered. They made it seem as if they were taking him to the hospital, and he got hit in a cross fire. It was horrible how people were hitting him while he was reeling from having been shot in the head.
Again, I don't like the guy. They could have executed him later, but that's not the way to go about things. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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"In Tripoli, Blaring Horns and Shouts of Joy" from that bastion of right-wing ideology, the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/opinion/in-tripoli-jubilation-at-qaddafis-death.html
No doubt it's all feigned exultation, and/or the "real" Libyans are hiding in their cellars and crying for the death of their dear beloved leader. Either that or the piece was commissioned directly from the Obama administration and was simply fabricated. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
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Precisely the same criminal act as the Nazis? So we committed industrialized genocide in Libya?
This proposition cannot be taken seriously. |
Is it really acceptable and that much better to incinerate masses of people by bombing than by throwing them in ovens? |
Is it really acceptable and that much better that you beat your wife, bacasper?
Ersatz's game is old and simple: deny the crimes of the natives and crucify the imperialists, no matter what the facts, no matter if the "natives" and "imperialists" are on the same side.
The facts:
* Benghazi revolted
* Gathafi and sons moved to crush the revolt, killing both rebels and civilians in the West, and threatening to kill civilians through airstrikes in the East
* The UN authorized a no-fly zone. NATO stepped it up into an aerial intervention and active air support.
* The rebels won
The casualties:
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Officially, according to Libya�s new leaders, their martyrs in the struggle against the government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi should number 30,000 to 50,000, not even counting their enemies who have fallen.
Yet in the country�s morgues, the war dead registered from both sides in each area so far are mostly in the hundreds, not the thousands. And those who are still missing total as few as 1,000, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Those figures may be incomplete, but even if the missing number proves to be three times as high, and all are dead, the toll would be far short of official casualty totals. |
We have no idea who died at who's hand, and yet you and ersatz are gleefully comparing NATO intervention to the Holocaust.
You two are intellectually bankrupt. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Of course Kuros is right.
I would add, a show trial/kangaroo court in Libya followed by a pre-determined execution is not the way to inspire belief in impartial justice.
Wars, civil wars, and revolutions are not neat, clean, tidy little exercises in decorous, civil behavior. They are violent, vicious, murderous enterprises that should be avoided except in the most extreme situations because of what they bring with them.
Charles I and Louis XVI both had trials before their executions. I don't see that the trials did anything to further the cause of civilization. I see no cause to believe a trial for Qaddafi would have been any different.
Most of this thread has been a very peculiar defense of Qaddafi and the responses to that defense.
In more positive news, NATO announced it would leave Libya on Oct. 31 unless there are continuing outbursts of pro-Qaddafi violence.
| Quote: |
| Yet in the country�s morgues, the war dead registered from both sides in each area so far are mostly in the hundreds, not the thousands. And those who are still missing total as few as 1,000, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Those figures may be incomplete, but even if the missing number proves to be three times as high, and all are dead, the toll would be far short of official casualty totals. |
I really hope this turns out to be true. I haven't seen anything like that report, so thanks for posting it. I had heard 25,000, which was heart-stopping. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:29 am Post subject: |
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One cannot compare what NATO did to what occurred during the Shoah, Nazi Holocaust. There is no comparison. NATO wasn't seeking to commit genocide. It intervened on the side of the rebels because of its economic interests and dislike for Gaddafi and to give people the image that they are supporting a democracy in Libya rather than a dictatorship.
NATO exceeded what the Russians and Chinese understood to be acceptable based on the U.N. resolution. The Russians and Chinese had a point, and they are correct, though I despised Gaddafi's rule.
Someone said that it's simply propaganda, that no real Libyans are celebrating Gaddafi's death. What do you call the rebels? They're Libyans. Gaddafi was, especially, hated in the East more than the West, but he did have his fair share of enemies in the West and also Berbers. It was viewed as if he stole the revolution people like Omar Mukhtar for when they fought against the Italians. It's true, Gaddafi had some support amongst some tribesmen in the country. If he didn't have some degree of support he wouldn't have been able to last that long against NATO and the rebels. And if it weren't for the French bombing his convoy that was trying to escape, and not attacking anyone, then who knows what happened. If the Russians said the French violated the UN mandate, I would agree. I don't miss Gaddafi, but I don't believe in capturing him and his son alive and then executing them without due process. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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The previous three posts above contain an astounding amount of solid common sense. And to clarify, the wording in my previous post was 100 percent sarcastic.
"Crowd lining up to see Gaddafi's body", from AlJazeera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD-aXPTEE5M&feature=player_embedded
Look at these "jihadists and thugs" in their jeans and polo shirts lining up to see Gaddafi's corpse. Who exactly are they going to be sending those cellphone pics to - al Qaeda? Or would it be, instead, to their families and friends in villages who would like to have the sort of finalizing confirmation that the brute who terrorised them for 40 years is dead (and not to say that I'm an enthusiastic supporter of capital punishment, but this is similar to same sort of desire for closure that most bereaved people have when the execution of a murderer is in question)? If not, then undoubtedly the video above was purely staged, organised by NATO, and all the guys were paid $100 and then walked away, and no one is really celebrating; most Libyans must be shedding tears of sorrow now.
NATO's motives for involvement are another matter entirely, but on a certain level that is beside the point. If the end of one-party rule and state terror in Libya coincides with the best interests of NATO's oil companies, then Libya is better off. Any and all imbeciles who compare NATO's intervention to either the Holocaust or to colonialism have absolutely no conception of what either genocide or colonialism look like, and are, as noted above, completely intellectually bankrupt. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Of course Kuros is right.
I would add, a show trial/kangaroo court in Libya followed by a pre-determined execution is not the way to inspire belief in impartial justice.
Wars, civil wars, and revolutions are not neat, clean, tidy little exercises in decorous, civil behavior. They are violent, vicious, murderous enterprises that should be avoided except in the most extreme situations because of what they bring with them.
Charles I and Louis XVI both had trials before their executions. I don't see that the trials did anything to further the cause of civilization. I see no cause to believe a trial for Qaddafi would have been any different.
Most of this thread has been a very peculiar defense of Qaddafi and the responses to that defense.
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Indeed. Does anyone really doubt the end would have been the same? Saddam received a trial...all that was accomplished was a media circus and a waste of taxpayer money. Neither Saddam's or Qaddafi's guilt is in question. Everyone knows what they did. And if we were in the rebels' shoes having the man (who likely killed some of their relatives/loved ones) and who was definitely reponsible for killing some of their comrades in arms..it's understandable why they reacted. Not justified..perhaps but understandable.
And I also agree with Mr cwflaneur. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
This summary capture and execution on the spot with neither charges nor trial is all too reminiscent of what happened with bin Laden. It is very sad to see the death of democratic ideals (e.g., a trial before punishment) in the face of all this. Not a good omen for the beginning of the new Libyan state.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Qadhafi killed in crossfire |
I believe this to be propaganda. The rebels most likely murdered him on the spot. |
It may well be propaganda but it's not nearly on the same scale of offensiveness as ersatzredux's post. Probably contains more truth overall too. |
A bullet in the head after both legs had been shot. You call that "killed in the crossfire"??? Yeah, lots of truth in that. |
I never said it was completely truthful just more truthful than the vileness ersatz was spilling. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Of course Kuros is right.
I would add, a show trial/kangaroo court in Libya followed by a pre-determined execution is not the way to inspire belief in impartial justice.
Wars, civil wars, and revolutions are not neat, clean, tidy little exercises in decorous, civil behavior. They are violent, vicious, murderous enterprises that should be avoided except in the most extreme situations because of what they bring with them.
Charles I and Louis XVI both had trials before their executions. I don't see that the trials did anything to further the cause of civilization. I see no cause to believe a trial for Qaddafi would have been any different.
Most of this thread has been a very peculiar defense of Qaddafi and the responses to that defense.
. |
Indeed. Does anyone really doubt the end would have been the same? Saddam received a trial...all that was accomplished was a media circus and a waste of taxpayer money. Neither Saddam's or Qaddafi's guilt is in question. Everyone knows what they did. And if we were in the rebels' shoes having the man (who likely killed some of their relatives/loved ones) and who was definitely reponsible for killing some of their comrades in arms..it's understandable why they reacted. Not justified..perhaps but understandable.
And I also agree with Mr cwflaneur. |
I understand why the young rebels killed Gaddafi. Some of the olders with experience wanted him alive, but they couldn't prevent his death. They felt there was not much they could do. I don't think they wanted to fight to save his life. Gaddafi was telling them that what they were doing was wrong Islamically and shooting at them. He had a point, but he should have thought about that when he violated his religion and their religion by executing and torturing people.
He had a point. In a sense, killing him made whoever killed him similar to him at that moment. I can understand their anger, but extra-judicial killings of a dictator who is unarmed and can't do anything and is not firing at you is unacceptable. I understand Libyans partying and celebrating their independence. They're free from the dictator. I wish they put Gaddafi on trial. At least, people got to accuse Saddam Hussein in court, and he had to face a judge and think long and hard in his jail cell about what he did. I wasn't impressed, personally, with people slapping and hitting Gaddafi while he was bleeding from his head. It's a troubling sign, shows a command that doesn't appear to be in control, not a clearly respected authority. I hope that changes. No one here likes Gaddafi unless they're nuts. It's just the way he was dealt with defeats the purpose of criticizing him for what he did.
His son Mutassim who stood by him while some of other sons fled except for Saif Al Arab, Khamis, was later seen on video. He was smoking a cigarette. He was only slightly injured. He was told on camera to say "Allahu Akbar". I presume because those who had him on his camera were going to make him meet his maker, and to have him make his peace with God before they terminated him. Then they killed him. That also doesn't look good. Understandable? Sure, but it shows an NTC that looks weak, a command structure that is weak. It's chaos down there.
I would have preferred a trial with him to answer charges, not him killed because one tribe is upset with another tribe wanting to take him and then shoots him. He got a fate he deserved. It was karma. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
The facts:
* Benghazi revolted
* Gathafi and sons moved to crush the revolt, killing both rebels and civilians in the West, and threatening to kill civilians through airstrikes in the East
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Some people have very conveniently chosen to overlook these facts. And had history taken another turn, and NATO chosen not to intervene, I'm perfectly sure some of these same faces would have been lambasting the evil west for propping up such a brutal dictator in the face of a genocide to protect their oil deals.
Anyway, not how I would have wanted it but nonetheless, the wicked witch is dead. |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| toadkillerdog wrote: |
| The world will be a better, though less interesting, place without M.Q.. |
But will it?
The first thing the NTC has done in their inaugural "freedom speech" is to declare sharia law.
How much dosh has the west wasted to get this islamic fundamentalist outfit into power? |
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