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I Miss George W. Bush
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sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject:

ThingsComeAround wrote:

alwaysgood wrote:

ThingsComeAround wrote:

Bush was the kind of guy that, although you knew he was a screwup and didn't deserve his post, he was also charming in a Forrest Gump kind of way.

But- he did know how to lead. He did not compromise- he told people the way he wanted things done and most of the time he got his wish, a quality Obama lacks.

So, he was an uncompromising moron. He abused and expanded executive power to make bad decisions. Just the kind of person you want leading your country, right?

The kind of person I want running the country is someone who doesn't tuck tail and hide at every disagreement. I want someone that makes a decision and sticks with it- that way we all know where they stand.
Some people that run the country are compromising cowards. They change their words because they don't want to "upset" the opposition. They are more dangerous, IMO

Just so you know, I was not nor am I now a Bush supporter.

I have not been happy with Obama. It must be said it was a pretty high standard with the euphoria and the margin of victory. It was going to be tough to meet expectations given the economic mess the country was in and we live in a 'now' society where we want to see results right away. The mess is like a toxic spill. It'll take years to clean up.

That said, Obama does not strike me as a weak person. I think his error was trying to work with Republicans and giving away too much. Not out of weakness but in the spirit of compromise.

The Republicans do not compromise or they do it extremely sparingly when they are not in power (even in power they are like that). Their nature is not to. Their fringe threatens them with not being voted back in if they do. McCain has faced fairly tough re-election campaigns in Arizona because he dared to work with Democrats like Russ Feingold. It didn't even matter that he worked with him on something that fits into their ideology. The fact he worked with Dems is bad enough.

Obama has learned that now. You have to compromise in Washington D.C. on any number of things. Its just how it is and frankly how it should be. There are certain ideological or ethical pillars you shouldn't but I'm not talking about that.

For the vast majority of the modern era it has been a Democrat controlled Congress except for a part of the '90s and the first 6 years of the new mlillenium. I've seen what happens when Republicans control both the oval office and the Congress and its not pretty. I had no problem voting Republcan prior. I'm an independent, sometimes small l libertarian. However, it will take a hallucinigen drug for me to trust the party again. Save Paul and Huntsman, I would prefer Obama to the field I see. Its a bad field. No substance. The same old rhetoric. I see no plan other than the same old stuff of cutting corporate taxes and regulations and pumping out more oil. All that tells me is that the party is bought and paid for. Corporate profits are high, The Forbes 400 have all gotten back either all or more of the net worth they loss since '08. Cutting their taxes will NOT mean more jobs. It just means they get richer. Corporations are not hiring because taxes and regs are too high. They have no faith in the short and long term economic strength of the nation. The middle class is shrinking and if the candidates had any sense they'd look at how to get the middle class and working classes back. We can start with massive spending on infrastructure and moving away from an oil based society.

alljokingaside

Joined: 17 Feb 2010

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:46 am Post subject:

Let's not forget the public lashback after he pushed the ACA through during his first year in office. The Right yelled and screamed and moaned while the media amplified it. Not to say Obama was perfect, far from really, but he did have tons against him

pkang0202

Joined: 09 Mar 2007

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:11 am Post subject:

This thread is so funny! The liberals coming saying "The Republicans don't compromise!" etc...etc... Shut your MOUTH. What the Republicans are doing now is STRAIGHT out of the Democrat Playbook 2004-2010. Oh, when your side is in power its "the will of the people." But when the other side gets what they want, its through backroom dealing and not willing to budge on anything. The hilarity of it all. Its also interesting that when a Republican loses by a slim margin, there is no recount. But when a Democrat loses by a slim margin then accusations of voter intimidation and fraud come out with demands of a recount. Mark my words, come with November, it will be the DEMOCRATS who scream RECOUNT when one of their candidates loses by a slim margin. Do those same Democrats scream RECOUNT when a Republican loses by a slim margin?

No_hite_pls

Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject:

pkang0202 wrote:

This thread is so funny!

The liberals coming saying "The Republicans don't compromise!" etc...etc...

Shut your MOUTH. What the Republicans are doing now is STRAIGHT out of the Democrat Playbook 2004-2010.

Oh, when your side is in power its "the will of the people."

But when the other side gets what they want, its through backroom dealing and not willing to budge on anything.

The hilarity of it all. Its also interesting that when a Republican loses by a slim margin, there is no recount. But when a Democrat loses by a slim margin then accusations of voter intimidation and fraud come out with demands of a recount.

Mark my words, come with November, it will be the DEMOCRATS who scream RECOUNT when one of their candidates loses by a slim margin. Do those same Democrats scream RECOUNT when a Republican loses by a slim margin?

Get in touch with reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSE_saVX_2A

bentobento

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Location: US of A (for now)

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:38 pm Post subject:

weso1 wrote:

I'm also angry that Democrats in Congress have yet to find a spine or grow a pair. They let the Republicans force them to get 60 votes on even the most trivial of issues. Yet, when the Republicans win the Senate next year, the Democrats wont do that to them. They'll let them go back to the old rules and continue to get steamrolled by conservatives.

I know giving up on the Democratic party and not voting means we'd be handing it all over to the Repubs and that means certain doom for everyone (except wall street.) But I'm just so apathetic on the spineless, weak, submissive cry babies that are in that party, it's hard for me to hold my nose and vote for them.

I want a liberal with a backbone. I want a liberal that seeks bipartisianship, but when it's obvious he isn't going to get it, to fight for what he wants. I want a liberal that when the Republicans punch him the face, he makes a fist and knocks a few of their teeth out. I want a liberal that rallies the media every time Republicans filibuster a bill necessary to the American people and says "look right now. We're trying to govern and do the job you sent us here to do and they're just standing in the way." I want a liberal that calls Republicans out on their BS. I want a liberal that calls out Republican propaganda and beats them to death with facts and figures. I want a liberal to make a fist and learn how to use it.

I'm sorry, what? Steamrolled by conservatives? Baaaahahahhaha I'm not even sure where to start with this response.

1. Mainstream media is controlled by mostly liberals. The bias in the media is well known. Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, BBC, NPR, blah blah blah. Fox News is the only thing slightly conservative out there aside from talk radio and blogs, and you hear people bashing Fox News all the time calling it a joke. Gee, I wonder why people say that? Could they not like that there is someone reporting another viewpoint? You want the media to make a fuss? They do, they bash conservatives every chance they get, or are you too brainwashed to see it? It's ok, I have plenty of friends who are too.

2. From past experience with members of both parties, I've seen more conservatives talk using facts and figures. Liberals often times speak with their emotions not necessarily their brains.

3. Democrats had complete control of Congress from 2006 (oh hey, GWB was Prez) until the end of 2010, and that's when things REALLY started to go downhill. After the 2008 election, Obama + Congress all democratic. Complete control. They had every chance to do what they wanted and THEY DID. Hello? Are you awake? Do you not see all they have done to the US since gaining power? You can blame Bush all you want, but the fact is Obama made what was already bad 10x worse instead of trying to make it better. Don't even start with saying Obama's solutions won't start working until such-in-such date... he could cut taxes, ease up on regulations, etc. right now, but instead he decides to propose ridiculous "stimulus" deals that are just spending in disguise. Businesses are scared to make a move with him in the oval office and therefore our economy stays as it is.

4. I think this is particularly funny: I want a liberal that seeks bipartisianship, but when it's obvious he isn't going to get it, to fight for what he wants. mostly because conservatives are usually the ones who back down. This is the reason why McCain was such a weak choice for the GOP in 2008. He's known to back down on his beliefs and therefore can't get what needs to be done done. GWB did the same thing toward the end of his presidency.

Thank God both parties think Obama's jobs plan is a laugh.

Bush had his flaws (every human does), but I honestly don't believe he deserves the harsh ridicule he receives.

I know I'm going to be bashed to bits on this forum by people who are so 'tolerant' of other people's views.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:28 am Post subject:

bentobento wrote:

1. Mainstream media is controlled by mostly liberals. The bias in the media is well known. Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, BBC, NPR, blah blah blah. Fox News is the only thing slightly conservative out there aside from talk radio and blogs, and you hear people bashing Fox News all the time calling it a joke. Gee, I wonder why people say that?

Aside from MSNBC, Fox News is called a joke because it is the only partisan propaganda network on the air. (And I'm not equivocating between MSNBC and Fox, MSNBC is a liberal lite version of Fox's heavy-handed partisan machinery). Aside from Stephen Colbert, none of the other American news organizations have a left-wing slant. They all do have a sensationalist bias, even including Jon Stewart.

Quote:

2. From past experience with members of both parties, I've seen more conservatives talk using facts and figures. Liberals often times speak with their emotions not necessarily their brains.

And conservatives love anecdotes as 'evidence.' On the internet. Even though anecdotes can't be verified. (And yes, I will rebut anecdote with anecdote, its all worthless in the wash).

Quote:

3. Democrats had complete control of Congress from 2006 (oh hey, GWB was Prez) until the end of 2010, and that's when things REALLY started to go downhill. After the 2008 election, Obama + Congress all democratic. Complete control. They had every chance to do what they wanted and THEY DID. Hello? Are you awake? Do you not see all they have done to the US since gaining power? You can blame Bush all you want, but the fact is Obama made what was already bad 10x worse instead of trying to make it better. Don't even start with saying Obama's solutions won't start working until such-in-such date... he could cut taxes, ease up on regulations, etc. right now, but instead he decides to propose ridiculous "stimulus" deals that are just spending in disguise. Businesses are scared to make a move with him in the oval office and therefore our economy stays as it is.

All I see are so-called conservatives conflating correlation with causation. Yes, Obama is doing a bang-up mediocre job domestically. But how does this translate into 'socialism' or '10x worse than Bush?' The GOP power machine of the early 00s devastated our country. Even Obama's TARP was inherited from Bush. We are feeling the effects of the easy money, Fed Reserve or Congressionally mandated, that characterized that period. So-called conservatives preach personal responsibility but in practice love to blame fault on "the liberals."

Quote:

Bush had his flaws (every human does), but I honestly don't believe he deserves the harsh ridicule he receives.

The Bush tax cuts, Bush war spending, and Bush-era social spending have set this country back a decade. And you come on here saying Obama is 10x worse for continuing those policies. People ridicule Bush because its the healthiest alternative to the other expressions of frustration.

Quote:

I know I'm going to be bashed to bits on this forum by people who are so 'tolerant' of other people's views.

Frak tolerance. I am not a liberal. I am also not tolerant of presentations which lift their weaksauce talking points from Fox News.

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:20 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Quote:

When a party has full control of government, they -do- take on responsibility for the results of government policies... which is more than "conflating correlation with causation". Obama has increased the debt more in 3 years than Bush did in 8 years. Yes, TARP was part of that, but with control comes responsibility, especially since Obama pushed for it as well.

I -really- hope that Americans can escape the blinders of partisanship to see that neither party establishment is interested in disarming our debt-bomb before it goes off Greek-style.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:45 am Post subject:

comm wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Quote:

I agree, comm. But read that to which I'm responding. He's attacking Obama and defending Bush. That's mind-boggling.

I've spent time on more right-wing leaning chatboards, and every negative economic indicator is proof that Obama has destroyed the economy. No question Obama has done a mediocre job, and that's what I said. But how can a Bush-backer lambast Obama for four more years of the same? Its incredible.

Do you think Obama has instituted 'socialism?' That he is '10x' worse than Bush? I cannot unite with the partisan deluded or people who swallow Fox vitriol. You think Fox addicts back OWS?

bentobento

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Location: US of A (for now)

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

comm wrote:

I agree with comm.

By the way, I'm a woman. I don't know why you are hanging onto silly things I said such as "10x worse". I wrote my original response at 1:30 in the morning, sorry I couldn't think of something better at the time. I also think it's worth noting that I do not watch tv news networks aside from occasionally looking up at televisions while at the gym. During which, I usually watch both FN & CNN at the same time or watch neither and spend my time watching Top Gear ( what I usually end up doing). So you can drop this idea that I get my talking points from and/or am brainwashed by Fox News "propaganda".

How is defending Bush mind-boggling? I'm not saying Bush was the best prez eva' omg! How are job plans, stimulus bills, financial regulation acts, healthcare plans, and increasing the national debt more in 3 years the same as Bush? Sure he has kept a handful of things from the Bush years, but why do people whine and whine about the war in Iraq but are fine with troops being sent to Afghanistan, Uganda? Why doesn't anyone whine about the Patriot Act anymore? High gas prices? Double standard much?

I still don't understand why some people think tax cuts are evil. How is putting money back into the hands of the Americans who earned it evil?

Do I think Obama has instituted Socialism? No. Do I think he on the road to it? Yep. It's clear how much government is growing and how no one in Washington seems to believe in the Constitution anymore. Obama seems to lack understanding of how to fix things. He wants to create jobs? That's cool, but government cannot create jobs in the private sector (at least not without easing up on taxes and regulations). He could create jobs in government, sure, but how is he going to pay all those new employees? With the money the government doesn't have? By taxing other Americans? Or maybe, just maybe, Obama knows exactly what he's doing and wants Socialism and is purposely killing our economy. Maybe he wants government to gain even more control and he's in it all for himself. Mwahahhahahha lollolllollolol.

As for OWS, HAAAAAAAAA. Dear lord... those protestors should be protesting on the lawn of the White House.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject:

bentobento wrote:

How is defending Bush mind-boggling? I'm not saying Bush was the best prez eva' omg! How are job plans, stimulus bills, financial regulation acts, healthcare plans, and increasing the national debt more in 3 years the same as Bush? Sure he has kept a handful of things from the Bush years, but why do people whine and whine about the war in Iraq but are fine with troops being sent to Afghanistan, Uganda? Why doesn't anyone whine about the Patriot Act anymore? High gas prices? Double standard much?

You're new to this board, so you should just accept it when I say I have criticized Obama a lot here. A lot. Do your frakking homework before you accuse me of a double standard, newb.

bentobento wrote:

Or maybe, just maybe, Obama knows exactly what he's doing and wants Socialism and is purposely killing our economy. Maybe he wants government to gain even more control and he's in it all for himself.

This is mind-numbing. Protecting Americans who have pre-existing conditions and from having health insurance companies from dumping them from plans THEY PAID FOR is not socialist. Obamacare is basically a lot of consumer protection provisions plus an individual mandate. If you want to lambast the individual mandate, well, we have common cause.

bentobento wrote:

As for OWS, HAAAAAAAAA. Dear lord... those protestors should be protesting on the lawn of the White House.

Predictable. Wall Street buys out Congress and the White House and you blame the lackeys. I bet you thought Grima Wormtongue was the main villain in LOTR, didn't you? Well, anything but blame anyone in the private sector ever.

Look, Wall Street gamed DC. OWS is right to start at Wall Street. But newsflash, they've occupied DC, as well.

I know, I know, OWS is bad because they care about social justice. Partisans like you are the problem, not the solution.

To answer your point about tax cuts. They're not inherently evil. But at this time, they're irresponsible. We need to raise taxes and cut spending, probably in a ratio where the spending cuts double the tax increases. If we don't the coming generation will have to pay more in taxes. Its simple accounting.

bentobento

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Location: US of A (for now)

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject:

Why do you call me a partisan when you have no idea if I'm even registered with a party? You are just making assumptions of me based off of a few points I made. Yes, I am new to this current events board. I was bored one day and decided to look at the other Korean boards, but I'm not going to search your whole post history because I've got better things to do with my time. I also never directed the double standard point at you, that was just a general comment. I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking you. That's fine if they want some sort of universal healthcare, but I don't want to be forced to pay for it if I don't want to use it. I have a pre-existing condition and I'd rather pay for private healthcare. I know they occupied DC already, but they should have started and stayed in DC.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject:

bentobento wrote:

Why do you call me a partisan when you have no idea if I'm even registered with a party? You are just making assumptions of me based off of a few points I made.

Yes. You're right. I'm fed up with a certain narrative, and your presentation sounded very similar to that narrative. Maybe you are not partisan.

Quote:

I have a pre-existing condition and I'd rather pay for private healthcare.

But Obamacare is precisely what protects your ability to buy private healthcare. Obamacare isn't socialism, its a lot of consumer health care provisions plus an individual mandate.

Quote:

I know they occupied DC already, but they should have started and stayed in DC.

Why? They're not the Tea Party. They're absolutely right to protest the banksters on Wall Street while also protesting their lackeys in Washington.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject:

bentobento wrote:

Kuros wrote:

comm wrote:

Well, considering that alot of that was done in response to the mess that Bush left it could reasonably be considered as part of his legacy. The stimulus bill and jobs plan were bad, but it's because they were too small as most serious economists could tell you. Finicial regulation would have been helpful during the Bush era, how any one could miss that is beyond me, especially considering the after math. I'm pertty sure that most people are not still fine with the war in Afghanistan, but we we attacked by a group that was given sanctuary there, as opposed to Iraq which didn't provoke us. If you can't tell the differnce between thoose two, then well I'm not sure what to tell you. The fact that you use the word whine implies that you are fine with things like the patriot act, which honestly is one horrible holdover, among many, that Obama has kept from the Bush years.

bentobento wrote:

I still don't understand why some people think tax cuts are evil. How is putting money back into the hands of the Americans who earned it evil?

When they largely benefit one social class above all others. When they massively increase the debt. When you cut taxes as you go into war, etc. etc. etc. It's disgusting seeing politicians push for debt ceiling deals after voting for measures earlier that put us into this crisis. This is a huge part of Bush's legacy.

bentobento wrote:

Do I think Obama has instituted Socialism? No. Do I think he on the road to it? Yep. It's clear how much government is growing and how no one in Washington seems to believe in the Constitution anymore. Obama seems to lack understanding of how to fix things. He wants to create jobs? That's cool, but government cannot create jobs in the private sector (at least not without easing up on taxes and regulations). He could create jobs in government, sure, but how is he going to pay all those new employees? With the money the government doesn't have? By taxing other Americans? Or maybe, just maybe, Obama knows exactly what he's doing and wants Socialism and is purposely killing our economy. Maybe he wants government to gain even more control and he's in it all for himself. Mwahahhahahha lollolllollolol.

As for OWS, HAAAAAAAAA. Dear lord... those protestors should be protesting on the lawn of the White House.

Goverment is actually shrinking. Obama is cutting lots of government money. Did you miss the whole special committe, the end of discretionary spending, putting medicare and social security cuts on the table, etc. etc. Honestly I think that we should spend more, because when consumer spending is down the government can step in and create an increase in demand which stimulates the whole economy. This is fairly mainstream stuff, and used to be considered bi-partisan. I have lots of problems with Obama, but you are far off the mark in most of your critiques.

weso1

Joined: 26 Aug 2010

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject:

bentobento wrote:

weso1 wrote:

1. The mainstream media is not liberal. Perhaps the people that work in the media tend to be liberal, but most college educated people are. If the media itself were liberal, they wouldn't take everything a Republican says on camera as if it was Moses coming down from the mountain top.

2. This is the exact opposite of reality. Liberals use facts. Conservatives appeal to emotions. They want you to fear gays, foreigners, and anything different than what they believe. Democrats don't go with "their gut." That's a uniquely Republican trait. Of course in recent years, conservatives have come around that they do need some facts, so they just start making them up as they go. "Top 10% pay 90% of taxes" - sounds good, total myth. They also create entire think tanks to publish these so called "facts" to lend the politician spouting them some form of credibility. But they aren't based on anything more than the selfish desires of a lone right wing nut job in a back office making it up as he goes along.

3. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. You think since A happened, then B happened that A caused B. It's a complete logical fallacy and it shows how shallow your reasoning skills are.

sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject:

bentobento wrote:

Bush had his flaws (every human does), but I honestly don't believe he deserves the harsh ridicule he receives.

-10 ponts from Slytherin.

It begs the question which president was he better than in the last 50 years? I'll beat you to it, please don't say Carter or Nixon. Nixon as big of a crook as he was at least signed some of the most progressive legislation in his terms.

I've voted Republican before. However, I've pretty much sworn off the party since '08. At least when I ask Democrats about some Democrats they'll admit there are some bad ones and even name a couple.

The Republicans have never met a Republican politican they didn't like.

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