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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Just saying that it's not helpful to make comparisons without reference to various historical events. For example, in your example, it took the US centuries to grant civil rights to all its citizens whereas Korea gave full civil rights a lot faster. So according to the ahistorical "reasoning� of some posters here Korean culture seems to be more amenable to democratic ideals! Trying to impose Western notions of racism on Koreans without referring to historical differences is just as silly and is actually a bit like propaganda.
| flakfizer wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
What makes Westerners qualified to lecture to Koreans about racism? I'll never understand that one.  |
Maybe I can help you with that one. But first, we'll have to define a few terms. What do you mean by "lecture to Koreans?" I ask because this site isn't really an open letter to Koreans but a message board for ESL teachers mostly talking amongst themselves. Also, I see more observing and complaining rather than "lecturing."
Also, what do you mean by "Westerners?" Do you mean people born, raised and educated in western countries? Or are you using the term "westerner" as a substitute for "white folks?"
Finally, does the passage of time not come into play at all? I mean, is it equally hard for you to understand why "westerners" would sing the praises of democracy and free elections when they didn't have them either at one point in time? |
Last edited by komerican on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
You read some of these posts and you'd think Martin Luther King died an old man surrounded by friends and family instead of being 6 feet under from a bullet through his head. And now we have the Confucian and Prostitution cards being played and it's only a matter of time before eating dogs gets brought up.  What makes Westerners qualified to lecture to Koreans about racism? I'll never understand that one. |
Using the logic you mentioned, couldn't you argue that a Gyopo can't complain about racism say from Caucasians since there is plenty of Asian prejudice vis-a-vis Caucasians and African Americans? It is also possible that in South Africa in 1990 the majority of Afrikanners were not really racist against black people or necessarily supported the continuation of apartheid. They just didn't do enough to go against the system.
We don't live in a perfect world. While we should be cognizant of the fact that America has a lot of racism, in some aspects, the US is better from a legal stand-point when it comes to the protection of minorities, redresses and grievances.
Urbanmyth stated that the majority of foreigners would be admitted to a sauna. I believe that. That would indicate a majority of Koreans are accepting enough to admit foreigners to a sauna. Yet, there hasn't been enough of an outrage to have laws regarding racism against foreigners or mixed Koreans, and that's why the sauna owner was able to do that.
In France, there is plenty of racism, but there have been French protests by an SOS group against racism. Americans of all backgrounds support Cesar Chavez.
Racism is everywhere, there is no doubt about it. Here is the difference: In the US, that sauna owner could end up in court. It wouldn't happen here. The societal and legal changes in the US have made it legally problematic for night club owners to bar people based on their color without being at legal risk. What happened would be the equivalent of someone barring an African American or Asian American saying they're a common source of a certain disease and shouldn't be allowed to swim in the pool. |
The jist of what I'm saying is that Korea never had a 1960's type of civil rights movement for racial minorities since Korea has never had a significant racial minority. So logically, it would be ABSURD to expect Korea to have these laws on the books.
Going forward, however, Korea will probably enact some laws protecting minorities but it would depend on how powerful these minorities become, i.e. their percentage of the population.
Your examples fail to factor in the essential difference, i.e. that gyopos are citizens of the US and have benefitted from that 60's civil rights movement. For example, the LPGA actually was considering limiting Korean national players but not Korean Americans. And they were within their rights to do so. They opted not to, which was a mostly business decision, the same decision that most sauna owners in Korea probably make.
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I mean is it common in our countries to tell a bunch of foreign workers congratulations they don't have AIDs as if to promulgate the idea that foreigners are the cause of AIDs. AIDs supposedly came from Africa, in the Congo, does the INS tell African immigrant applicants "Congratulations you don't have AIDs". What I'm saying is not that there isn't racism all over this globe, but there should be more of a discussion about how it affects mixed Koreans, naturalized Koreans, and foreigners. Is there anything wrong with saying that?
Was there anything wrong with Mexicans fighting for civil rights in the US when Mexico has its own racism, too, and was worse than the US? No. |
I don't have any problem with the OP, this is a discussion board after all, I'm just saying SOME of the posts are a bit ahistorical. I don't know what Korean announced that a group of foreigners don't have AIDs but this not usual , Also, Mexico cannot be compared to Korea since Korea is a far more homogenous country. So, I'm not saying let's not discuss this, but let's do it in a fairer and less propagandistic way. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I'll throw something out here for battling racism: Spectator Sports. Certainly integration there had a huge impact on racial attitudes. |
Sam "Bam" Cunningham. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| Just saying that it's not helpful to make comparisons without reference to various historical events. For example, in your example, it took the US centuries to grant civil rights to all its citizens whereas Korea gave full civil rights a lot faster. . |
Did it really? Korea is thousands of years old. Throughout its history, we've seen slavery and a society ruled by class- "peasants" did not have full civil rights up until the 20th century.
You might be correct in saying that Korea gave civil rights sooner after industrializing, but that goes with the understanding that Korea industrialized faster than other countries and there were first-world standards for civil rights established by the time it did. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| And when was it that Korea outlawed slavery? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| And when was it that Korea outlawed slavery? |
I've asked this question as well and never got an answer. I wonder why? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Did it abolish all slavery or only some forms while others were waiting to be phased out? I remember reading somewhere that "private slaves,"whatever that actually meant, were still legal?
Also, weren't the reforms pretty much forced on them by Japan? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Indeed, read that as well.
So it took a couple of decades to phase it out.
This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
The law or reform is one thing, social change is quite another. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
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This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
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Slavery is going on right now in many countries, you dont have to stretch back very far at all.
You or I, being very wealthy 1st worlders can do to the 3rd world and 'purchase' someone for cheap. Its been done by American reporters and charity groups. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: |
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[quote="komerican"]
| Quote: |
| The jist of what I'm saying is that Korea never had a 1960's type of civil rights movement for racial minorities since Korea has never had a significant racial minority. So logically, it would be ABSURD to expect Korea to have these laws on the books. |
Korea is a member of the OECD and the U.N., and it likes to see itself as a globalized country. It's expected of a modern, OECD country to have some anti-discrimination legislation. There are other countries that didn't have a civil rights movement for minorities in Europe, but have anti-discrimination laws. They do exist.
| Quote: |
| Going forward, however, Korea will probably enact some laws protecting minorities but it would depend on how powerful these minorities become, i.e. their percentage of the population. |
It shouldn't have to depend on how powerful the minorities are or are not. States are expected to combat discrimination, period.
| Quote: |
| Your examples fail to factor in the essential difference, i.e. that gyopos are citizens of the US and have benefitted from that 60's civil rights movement. For example, the LPGA actually was considering limiting Korean national players but not Korean Americans. And they were within their rights to do so. They opted not to, which was a mostly business decision, the same decision that most sauna owners in Korea probably make. |
Regardless, just as we are expected to treat citizens equally, and fight against discrimination against minorities, the same should be expected of Korea. We could provide excuses for many countries when they discriminate against minorities. Korea doesn't have to go through a civil rights movement like that of the US to understand and know that it should enact anti-discrimation laws so that an Uzbek Korean woman won't be barred from entering a sauna or a Korean-American who was jumped some years ago for speaking English would actually have proper legal recourse in the justice system. Countries make choices.
| Quote: |
| I don't have any problem with the OP, this is a discussion board after all, I'm just saying SOME of the posts are a bit ahistorical. I don't know what Korean announced that a group of foreigners don't have AIDs but this not usual , Also, Mexico cannot be compared to Korea since Korea is a far more homogenous country. So, I'm not saying let's not discuss this, but let's do it in a fairer and less propagandistic way |
I can understand that sentiment and can appreciate your attitude here. I am not saying it's common that someone announced others are free of HIV, but this doesn't surprise me because where I work (I won't name the place) someone who helps foreigners told other foreigners about some of the health issues of other foreigners. It's considered inappropriate in America, and you can get sued, so what that person doesn't surprise me since I've heard of similar behavior where I work, unfortunately. She is a nice person, but discussing other people's health issues is highly inappropriate. I don't know how common this is, but hearing about it twice is bad enough.
It may not be usual, but we shouldn't be hearing about such things, period.
On another note, I remember when the whole swine flu scare occurred.
I had a bad cold, not the swine flu. I had it for two weeks. My hagwon kept eyeing and asking me if I knew those foreigners quarantined or was in contact with them. I wasn't anywhere near them, and I didn't know them. We also heard that during that period, they kept the foreigners in quarantine and had the Koreans go home. You don't seem to be acknowledging that Korea has plenty of people who associate illnesses with foreigners and crime with foreigners, though us native teachers commit less crimes, per capita, than the local population. There's too much paranoia out there regarding foreigners, IMHO.
I am not saying that's the feeling of the majority of the populace. I don't think it is. I am just saying it's a problem. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Many countries abolished slavery after Western states did it. England and Canada did it before the U.S. The US had slaves freed in 1865, though Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation. Thus, we have states that emulated each other. Countries influence each other. Korea will implement reforms not through the actions per se of a large minority. It will probably make changes in order to have similar standards when it comes to human rights as many of the states in the West. I am not saying Western is better. There is good and bad everywhere. One thing Korea is better than say America at is investing in technology, public transportation, providing affordable health care for people. Many things are cheaper over here. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Many countries abolished slavery after Western states did it. England and Canada did it before the U.S. The US had slaves freed in 1865, though Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation. Thus, we have states that emulated each other. Countries influence each other. Korea will implement reforms not through the actions per se of a large minority. It will probably make changes in order to have similar standards when it comes to human rights as many of the states in the West. I am not saying Western is better. There is good and bad everywhere. One thing Korea is better than say America at is investing in technology, public transportation, providing affordable health care for people. Many things are cheaper over here. |
Korea's investment in technology in no one way equals the investment the U.S. makes and has made. Their R& D is miniscule in comparison. Where are their great technological breakthroughs?
Public transportation is good, but it's a lot easier to provide in a nation the size of Indiana.
Medical care is hit and miss here. And if you have any type of serious injury or disease, that's out of pocket. I realize many who post here may never have had jobs in the U.S. that provided medical care, but I never had a full-time job that did not provide excellent medical benefits, and when I was single I paid nothing for those benefits.
"Many things are cheaper," you post. Other than labor and public transportation, it's hard to think of many.
The U.S. fought a war over slavery. I don't think they were emulating anyone. They were fighting for what they truly believed in. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
| Quote: |
This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
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Slavery is going on right now in many countries, you dont have to stretch back very far at all.
You or I, being very wealthy 1st worlders can do to the 3rd world and 'purchase' someone for cheap. Its been done by American reporters and charity groups. |
Quite true, economic slavery still exists in the Third World. |
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