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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ippy wrote: |
thats a touch glib. Why not round it out by also mentioning that very few of those people are actually given the training they need to do their job "well".
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One could argue that it's not the employer's responsibility to provide training but the employee. For example do a TESOL or CELTA course before coming over here. To be a teacher back in Canada you don't receive training from your employer...you get certified BEFORE you set foot in a classroom.
The problem is that you have people coming over here who are not interested in teaching as a career or anything else except as a means to pay the bills. Now a lot of jobs amount to nothing more than that and it's fine. But some jobs should and do mean more. Teaching, police work, firefighters...do you want those done by people who just see them as a way to pay the bills or do you want them done by people who see them as a vocation or as their way of helping the community?
It's a no-brainer really.
Yes some people are getting fired because their employer is a poor businessman/unethical person. But that's only one side of the story. Other people are rocking the boat or simply not doing their job well. |
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braindrops
Joined: 13 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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It is an employer's market, and they will do whatever they please.
Instead of hiring someone with experience, who actually knows what he/she is doing, they are hiring newbies who don't know what they are doing . They figure they can easily take advantage of newbies, and hiring someone with experience is too risky. If they hire an experienced person, they can't get away with cheating them.
The newbie is then criticized for not being a good enough teacher, has his/her pay deducted illegally, and is fired.
After employers realize this, they pass on experienced people only to do the same thing over and over again. Then they complain about how bad teachers are, and the cycle repeats itself. |
so...so...ironic.
employees complaining that there are no good jobs...
employers complaining that there are no good teachers.
and in the gray area, money is being made...
that said, i agree in principle with what is in the post.
| Quote: |
| Definitely the fresh out of college kids. We have one young punk with no teaching experience and I wish we didn't. |
the certainty with which this post was made was pretty awesome. how bad is it? |
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Modernist
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem is that you have people coming over here who are not interested in teaching as a career or anything else except as a means to pay the bills. |
Speaking as one of TUM's nemeses, the dreaded educational mercenary, I will point out that the Republic of Korea must have one of the most money-centric educational systems in the world. Does the US, Canada, UK, South Africa have anything like the hagwon system? An entire network of barely regulated 'schools' employing tens of thousands, charging hundreds of millions [USD] annually, about 99.5% based around the profit motive? A system in which, if you don't or can't afford to pay to play, like 80% of my students, your chances of maintaining position in the Korean lifetime rat-race are sunk almost from the get-go regardless of how smart you may be?
No one working or thinking of working in Korea has any business lecturing about teaching as vocation or 'helping the community.' In this country, education is all about the mighty won. I'm no hypocrite for playing their game by their rules.
And just because I'm doing it for money doesn't mean I don't care about my students and try to do my best for them most days--they are too sweet and too genuinely caring for me to do otherwise.
As for police, I personally don't care if they're doing it for the money, as long as they catch the bad guys  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Modernist wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The problem is that you have people coming over here who are not interested in teaching as a career or anything else except as a means to pay the bills. |
Speaking as one of TUM's nemeses, the dreaded educational mercenary, I will point out that the Republic of Korea must have one of the most money-centric educational systems in the world. Does the US, Canada, UK, South Africa have anything like the hagwon system? An entire network of barely regulated 'schools' employing tens of thousands, charging hundreds of millions [USD] annually, about 99.5% based around the profit motive? A system in which, if you don't or can't afford to pay to play, like 80% of my students, your chances of maintaining position in the Korean lifetime rat-race are sunk almost from the get-go regardless of how smart you may be?
No one working or thinking of working in Korea has any business lecturing about teaching as vocation or 'helping the community.' |
Incorrect. Perhaps if they work in the hagwon system. But if they work in any other system then they are perfectly entitled to lecture about teaching as a vocation as they are not benefiting from said system. |
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jeremysums
Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Why are so many people getting FIRED it seems like? |
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Probably cause they don't like it and try to get fired.
| Mayfield wrote: |
I've read many threads on this forum about being fired in the past week.
Is it because the employers are getting too confident because of the flood of applicants that they're just trying to push you out for what they perceive to be someone better? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
Most people get fired because they don't do their job very well.
It's funny how many people just can't accept that. |
Correct.
However, it's not just those who are unable to teach because they are green and need training. There are also those who will never be able to teach, as they don't have the right personality. No amount of training will help them - and many come with teaching credentials - just no ability.
The worst group, those who will be fired or pull runners when the writing is on the wall (sometimes on multiple occasions), are those with unemployable personality traits. They have had difficulty with employment at home. They are the first fired in economic downturns at home, and they come to Korea with the same set of problems. They get fired as a result, but they never miss a chance to blame everyone but themselves and will pretend to have been abused somehow by their employer, or to have quit or pulled a runner when they were actually fired. Of course these teachers often provide the most entertaining threads on Dave's. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ippy wrote: |
thats a touch glib. Why not round it out by also mentioning that very few of those people are actually given the training they need to do their job "well".
. |
One could argue that it's not the employer's responsibility to provide training but the employee. For example do a TESOL or CELTA course before coming over here. To be a teacher back in Canada you don't receive training from your employer...you get certified BEFORE you set foot in a classroom.
*_* Yes, that is a common viewpoint taken by employers. But when they advertise for the untrained, no experience necessary and then complain at who they get, it seems a bit illogical. It took me all of 30 seconds to find and ad on this site that states the following:
You must be a Native English speaker from the USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, UK, or Ireland.
-You must also have at least a Bachelors Degree from any of these countries.
-No actual teaching experience or qualification is necessary! ( but of course is a plus) all you need is a true commitment and desire to teach, and willingness to respect the culture. ^_^
One could also argue that employers would be doing themselves a huge favor by offering some sort of training, or support for new teachers.
The problem is that you have people coming over here who are not interested in teaching as a career or anything else except as a means to pay the bills. Now a lot of jobs amount to nothing more than that and it's fine. But some jobs should and do mean more. Teaching, police work, firefighters...do you want those done by people who just see them as a way to pay the bills or do you want them done by people who see them as a vocation or as their way of helping the community?
*~* One could argue that, but what about people who do have an interest in teaching, but lack training. Employers are doing themselves a huge dis-service by assuming such things. How many runners could have been avoided or early firings if there had been proper support and on-the-job training?
It's a no-brainer really. *~* No, it's not really. It's just sad.
Yes some people are getting fired because their employer is a poor businessman/unethical person. But that's only one side of the story. Other people are rocking the boat or simply not doing their job well. |
Yes, that may be. But again, how many of these people could have been encouraged to do better given proper support ? A good businessman probably wouldn't hire un-trained people and then complain because they don't know anything.
If employers are going out of their way to hire untrained and under qualified people, perhaps they should think about doing more to help those same people so the can do better jobs.
In that respect, employers would be helping themselves by helping their new hires to become better teachers. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
[Yes, that may be. But again, how many of these people could have been encouraged to do better given proper support ? A good businessman probably wouldn't hire un-trained people and then complain because they don't know anything.
If employers are going out of their way to hire untrained and under qualified people, perhaps they should think about doing more to help those same people so the can do better jobs.
In that respect, employers would be helping themselves by helping their new hires to become better teachers. |
Most have no clue how to do this though. Some do provide orientation but in most cases it's a joke. A deeper and more underlying problem is that most bosses simply don't want to provide expensive and proper training to someone who will probably be gone after a year or who may get homesick and do a runner. A FT can literally be here today and gone tomorrow...bosses don't see the benefit in providing training to someone who's not here long term. The temporariness of the E-2 visa doesn't lend itself to such training...plus it takes time away from the classroom...the boss is losing money.
The entire visa structure as it relates to the E-2 needs to be overhauled first. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
[Yes, that may be. But again, how many of these people could have been encouraged to do better given proper support ? A good businessman probably wouldn't hire un-trained people and then complain because they don't know anything.
If employers are going out of their way to hire untrained and under qualified people, perhaps they should think about doing more to help those same people so the can do better jobs.
In that respect, employers would be helping themselves by helping their new hires to become better teachers. |
Most have no clue how to do this though. Some do provide orientation but in most cases it's a joke. A deeper and more underlying problem is that most bosses simply don't want to provide expensive and proper training to someone who will probably be gone after a year or who may get homesick and do a runner. A FT can literally be here today and gone tomorrow...bosses don't see the benefit in providing training to someone who's not here long term. The temporariness of the E-2 visa doesn't lend itself to such training...plus it takes time away from the classroom...the boss is losing money.
The entire visa structure as it relates to the E-2 needs to be overhauled first. |
Any training provided leaves when the worker leaves. It becomes an asset to the worker, not the school. This is why individuals are responsible for and generally should pay for their own educations. Educational investments increase the value of the individual as a productive employable asset. Most businesses at home (other than major large corporations) do not provide expensive training for their employees for that same reason.
In any case, lack of training is not the major problem. It is the poor social skills and defective personalities of a large percentage of the arriving new teachers - especially among the "last hired first fired" group flooding Korea since the start of the current downturn. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Any training provided leaves when the worker leaves. It becomes an asset to the worker, not the school.
*~*
Not necessarily so. It's a benefit to the school to have workers who know what is expected of them and how to go about their jobs. If teachers were given training they need, they may decide to stay and extra year or two. Who knows?
This is why individuals are responsible for and generally should pay for their own educations. Educational investments increase the value of the individual as a productive employable asset. Most businesses at home (other than major large corporations) do not provide expensive training for their employees for that same reason.
I beg to differ. Most businesses in Canada have some sort of on the job training. It may not be official as in schooling, but they do have some kind of training. I've never had a job in Canada where they just let me show up and have no clue what I was supposed to do. It may be just an afternoon at the start, but there's usually some sort of unofficial, but on-going monotoring and consultation between the boss and the employee.
What usually happens in hagwons is a bunch of negative berating of the new teacher for things that he/she never knew about or has no control over, and then they can't figure out why the teacher would want to pull a runner.
When schools do find a teacher that is a good match (and it does happen)
why don't they do more to try and keep them? They usually expect the person to just keep on for the same wage as they were started at and then can't figure out why the teacher wants to leave.
As TUM put it before, it's a no-brainer.
*_* What they could do is get previous teachers to give new hires a week or so of
orientation/training. That would not be very expensive and would be ongoing and probably more effective because it would relate directly to the particular job at hand.
In this way they could do more to show new hires what is expected of them, and it wouldn't cost much. They could just make it a requirement in the contract that out-going teachers work their final week as normal, but are accompanied by the in-coming teacher. This way, any questions, concerns could be dealt with from the start and new teachers would at least have some grasp of what is expected.
I don't know how many jobs in Korea I had, where I had to guess what they wanted and hope for the best.
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In any case, lack of training is not the major problem. It is the poor social skills and defective personalities of a large percentage of the arriving new teachers - especially among the "last hired first fired" group flooding Korea since the start of the current downturn.[/quote]
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I can't speak on personalities, but again I would suggest it has a lot to do with the kind of advertising Korea does. As long as they are placing ads with "NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY", they shouldn't be surprised with the people they get.
If employers don't or won't provide training then it would be fairly easy for them to at least require a CELTA or an equivalent
teaching course on top of the University degree.
They won't do it because they are afraid of having to pay more . (that's my best guess)
So they won't offer training and they won't require any kind of teaching certificates, I'd say they have no one to blame but themselves. |
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