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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Public transportation is good, but it's a lot easier to provide in a nation the size of Indiana. |
Yet Indiana has piss poor public transit.... 
Seriously, lets not turn this into some silly pissing contest over which country is better. Each country is better than the other at certain things. Korea wins the public transit issue over Canada hands down. I am not talking about city-to city trains but about inner city transport (thats buses and subway networks). They (Korea) did this out of necessity and they did it pretty darn well as public transit is relatively cheap, highly efficient, convenient and covers major cities very well. Seoul's subway network for example is simply outstanding.
Busan's subway has become great over the years through development and public transit incorporates a lot of convenient tech. For example in Busan at a lot of bus stops you have a live interactive screen telling you where each bus is relative to your stop and how long you have to wait. Thats darn convenient if you ask me.
Just sayin... |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Indeed, read that as well.
So it took a couple of decades to phase it out.
This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
The law or reform is one thing, social change is quite another. |
Trying to swing this into a public transit debate?  . One of those 36 year "couple of decades," I guess. Time-scale-wise, it is closer to half a century, but who's counting "a couple," or thinking realistically? Simplified, apologetic distraction. And, if you're citing the 13th Amendment, at least get the date right.
Anticipating a, "NO! I was citing the year of the speech!" |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| jfromtheway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Indeed, read that as well.
So it took a couple of decades to phase it out.
This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
The law or reform is one thing, social change is quite another. |
Trying to swing this into a public transit debate? . One of those 36 year "couple of decades," I guess. Time-scale-wise, it is closer to half a century, but who's counting "a couple," or thinking realistically? Simplified, apologetic distraction. And, if you're citing the 13th Amendment, at least get the date right.
Anticipating a, "NO! I was citing the year of the speech!" |
Oh calm down...I was just responding to the previous two posts that compared countries and saying I think (as in my opinion, take it or leave it) that Korea has done a bang up job with public transit in its major cities.
Now you want to debate slavery...go ahead. It exists in an economic form in numerous third world countries and is taken advantage of by many people in 1st world countries as was stated before.
36 years is a couple of decades but if you prefer...3.6 decades. There feel better? 
Proclamation of emancipation occured in september of 1863 did it not?
The amendement came later and segregation replaced slavery in some ways and endured well into the 1950s... 5.some decades after, gotta be precise just to be sure to avoid one of your outraged tirades!
By the way, I was not "apologizing" for anything, especially not something as repulsive as slavery.
Finally, and I am serious what the heck does slavery have to do with a sauna entrance denial or with today's Korea?
Cheers and take care out there. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| jfromtheway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Indeed, read that as well.
So it took a couple of decades to phase it out.
This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
The law or reform is one thing, social change is quite another. |
Trying to swing this into a public transit debate? . One of those 36 year "couple of decades," I guess. Time-scale-wise, it is closer to half a century, but who's counting "a couple," or thinking realistically? Simplified, apologetic distraction. And, if you're citing the 13th Amendment, at least get the date right.
Anticipating a, "NO! I was citing the year of the speech!" |
Oh calm down...I was just responding to the previous two posts that compared countries and saying I think (as in my opinion, take it or leave it) that Korea has done a bang up job with public transit in its major cities.
Now you want to debate slavery...go ahead. It exists in an economic form in numerous third world countries and is taken advantage of by many people in 1st world countries as was stated before.
36 years is a couple of decades but if you prefer...3.6 decades. There feel better?
Proclamation of emancipation occured in september of 1863 did it not?
The amendement came later and segregation replaced slavery in some ways and endured well into the 1950s... 5.some decades after, gotta be precise just to be sure to avoid one of your outraged tirades!
By the way, I was not "apologizing" for anything, especially not something as repulsive as slavery.
Finally, and I am serious what the heck does slavery have to do with a sauna entrance denial or with today's Korea?
Cheers and take care out there. |
My god, you wrote that response fast. Glad you thought it out.
| Quote: |
| Proclamation of emancipation occured in september of 1863 did it not? |
That was a war power EO, and dyslexic gold on your behalf, but not a law.
Slow down. Yes, it took 90 years for Jim Crow laws to be "phased out," but your general comparison to Korea was, well, kinda crap. No offense. Slavery has everything to do with the "entrance denial" to a sauna, obviously. Why are you going off topic so late in the game on page 14? I thought this was about public transit in Indiana. Eh, nevermind. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quite true, economic slavery still exists in the Third World. |
There is a difference between economic slavery today such as Debt bondage and outright slavery such as what they have in brothels and places in West Africa, where people are purchased and owned, whipped, beaten and sold off again on a whim.
Abuse of Human Rights from being denied entry to public places to having your children sold because you have no rights. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Many countries abolished slavery after Western states did it. England and Canada did it before the U.S. The US had slaves freed in 1865, though Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation. Thus, we have states that emulated each other. Countries influence each other. Korea will implement reforms not through the actions per se of a large minority. It will probably make changes in order to have similar standards when it comes to human rights as many of the states in the West. I am not saying Western is better. There is good and bad everywhere. One thing Korea is better than say America at is investing in technology, public transportation, providing affordable health care for people. Many things are cheaper over here. |
Korea's investment in technology in no one way equals the investment the U.S. makes and has made. Their R& D is miniscule in comparison. Where are their great technological breakthroughs?
Public transportation is good, but it's a lot easier to provide in a nation the size of Indiana.
Medical care is hit and miss here. And if you have any type of serious injury or disease, that's out of pocket. I realize many who post here may never have had jobs in the U.S. that provided medical care, but I never had a full-time job that did not provide excellent medical benefits, and when I was single I paid nothing for those benefits.
"Many things are cheaper," you post. Other than labor and public transportation, it's hard to think of many.
The U.S. fought a war over slavery. I don't think they were emulating anyone. They were fighting for what they truly believed in. |
Just because something isn't better than somewhere else, does not mean it is bad.
| Quote: |
| The U.S. fought a war over slavery. I don't think they were emulating anyone. They were fighting for what they truly believed in. |
Slavery was the cause of the war, but the people fought for a variety of reasons.
And some other poster mentioned the Emancipation Proclamation. To clarify, the Proclamation was only a war measure. It only freed slaves in states that were in Rebellion. Slavery persisted in the Border States.
Needless to say, slavery continued in a de facto sense in the South up until the Civil Rights movement. In some cases you had near de jure denial of the right to vote through the "literacy test" laws that were on the books. Of course only one group of people had to submit to those in practice.
Minority issues take time to resolve themselves. Our country still has Affirmative Action on the books giving preferential treatment to minorities. Many would argue that such laws are necessary. I for one would say that as long as such a measure is necessary, for us to lecture other nations on how they treat their minorities and their "cultural attitudes" is a bit like a drunk lecturing an alcoholic on their boozing. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
[qu
The U.S. fought a war over slavery. I don't think they were emulating anyone. They were fighting for what they truly believed in. |
Actually slavery was just one of the issues. And slavery was NOT abolished (until later) in five of the Union states (Missouri, Kentucky, Deleware, Maryland and West Virginia). These states were allowed to keep slaves for some time after the Civil War.
Being refused admittance to a sauna is not even comparable though so I don't know why it's being bought up. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Many countries abolished slavery after Western states did it. England and Canada did it before the U.S. The US had slaves freed in 1865, though Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation. Thus, we have states that emulated each other. Countries influence each other. Korea will implement reforms not through the actions per se of a large minority. It will probably make changes in order to have similar standards when it comes to human rights as many of the states in the West. I am not saying Western is better. There is good and bad everywhere. One thing Korea is better than say America at is investing in technology, public transportation, providing affordable health care for people. Many things are cheaper over here. |
Korea's investment in technology in no one way equals the investment the U.S. makes and has made. Their R& D is miniscule in comparison. Where are their great technological breakthroughs?
Public transportation is good, but it's a lot easier to provide in a nation the size of Indiana.
Medical care is hit and miss here. And if you have any type of serious injury or disease, that's out of pocket. I realize many who post here may never have had jobs in the U.S. that provided medical care, but I never had a full-time job that did not provide excellent medical benefits, and when I was single I paid nothing for those benefits.
"Many things are cheaper," you post. Other than labor and public transportation, it's hard to think of many.
The U.S. fought a war over slavery. I don't think they were emulating anyone. They were fighting for what they truly believed in. |
Just because something isn't better than somewhere else, does not mean it is bad.
| Quote: |
| The U.S. fought a war over slavery. I don't think they were emulating anyone. They were fighting for what they truly believed in. |
Slavery was the cause of the war, but the people fought for a variety of reasons.
And some other poster mentioned the Emancipation Proclamation. To clarify, the Proclamation was only a war measure. It only freed slaves in states that were in Rebellion. Slavery persisted in the Border States.
Needless to say, slavery continued in a de facto sense in the South up until the Civil Rights movement. In some cases you had near de jure denial of the right to vote through the "literacy test" laws that were on the books. Of course only one group of people had to submit to those in practice.
Minority issues take time to resolve themselves. Our country still has Affirmative Action on the books giving preferential treatment to minorities. Many would argue that such laws are necessary. I for one would say that as long as such a measure is necessary, for us to lecture other nations on how they treat their minorities and their "cultural attitudes" is a bit like a drunk lecturing an alcoholic on their boozing. |
So a country that is working hard to eliminate prejudice and to righting wrongs is the same as a country that is doing nothing about it?
As for the rest of your post, what does it have to do with the U.S. emulating other countries regarding ending slavery? |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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In the Abolition Order of 1801, King Sunjo banned most official slavery. So clearly Koreans were facing this issue for a long time. The rational behind the law was that all subjects of the King were deemed equal under the law.
But keep in mind that along with this order slavery was slowly dying off in Korea due to economics, which is what happened in the West also.
And, at least Koreans didn't fight a bloody civil war over this issue. The American South actually wanted to build a vast empire of slavery that stretched to South America. I don't know how this makes Westerners more "progressive" than Koreans who never had to fight such a war. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| So a country that is working hard to eliminate prejudice and to righting wrongs is the same as a country that is doing nothing about it? |
No, but your statement does not reflect how things are in Korea. They are certainly "not doing anything about it". |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| jfromtheway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| jfromtheway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| 1894: Korea abolishes slavery. |
Also from Wikipedia: Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894 but remained extant in reality until 1930. |
Indeed, read that as well.
So it took a couple of decades to phase it out.
This seems to be the norm in countries that abolished slavery through reform or law. It lingers on unofficially for a while after. See Emancipation in the US in 1863 and the ensuing segregation that endured for decades longer.
The law or reform is one thing, social change is quite another. |
Trying to swing this into a public transit debate? . One of those 36 year "couple of decades," I guess. Time-scale-wise, it is closer to half a century, but who's counting "a couple," or thinking realistically? Simplified, apologetic distraction. And, if you're citing the 13th Amendment, at least get the date right.
Anticipating a, "NO! I was citing the year of the speech!" |
Oh calm down...I was just responding to the previous two posts that compared countries and saying I think (as in my opinion, take it or leave it) that Korea has done a bang up job with public transit in its major cities.
Now you want to debate slavery...go ahead. It exists in an economic form in numerous third world countries and is taken advantage of by many people in 1st world countries as was stated before.
36 years is a couple of decades but if you prefer...3.6 decades. There feel better?
Proclamation of emancipation occured in september of 1863 did it not?
The amendement came later and segregation replaced slavery in some ways and endured well into the 1950s... 5.some decades after, gotta be precise just to be sure to avoid one of your outraged tirades!
By the way, I was not "apologizing" for anything, especially not something as repulsive as slavery.
Finally, and I am serious what the heck does slavery have to do with a sauna entrance denial or with today's Korea?
Cheers and take care out there. |
My god, you wrote that response fast. Glad you thought it out.
| Quote: |
| Proclamation of emancipation occured in september of 1863 did it not? |
That was a war power EO, and dyslexic gold on your behalf, but not a law.
Slow down. Yes, it took 90 years for Jim Crow laws to be "phased out," but your general comparison to Korea was, well, kinda crap. No offense. Slavery has everything to do with the "entrance denial" to a sauna, obviously. Why are you going off topic so late in the game on page 14? I thought this was about public transit in Indiana. Eh, nevermind. |
Seriously now....calm down! You are getting far too worked up over this.
Good grief man, start a thread on this topic if you want an in depth debate or better yet take a graduate seminar on that issue and debate this week after week with others.
Now lets see, surely you miss-wrote this or are trying your hand and dark humor: Slavery has everything to do with the "entrance denial" to a sauna, obviously.
If you are serious, well, good luck to you out there in this big mean world.
The public transit in indiana comment I made was a joke...as indicated in that post.
You are pretty confused and there is no point in taking this further. You wish to continue tossing these things around go for it but no more responses from me, this is getting ridiculous.
oh and I am sure you will come up with some other insulting remark, just so you know, it will be for your sole benefit as I am done with this thread. |
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mukukja
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: |
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This sort of thing does not bother me so much for the simple fact that Korea is slowly pulling her socks up in these matters and if we are indeed living in the dark ages then imagine the warrior stories we get to tell our grandkids.
"That�s right sonny, I once got turned away from a nightclub that would have made me waste fifty bucks on fruit. No not that kind, you rascal!"
And so forth. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_97972.html
| http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_97972.html wrote: |
Two gangsters with tattoos covering their upper bodies were fined 50,000 won ($44) for bathing at a public bath.
Their presence was apparently intimidating due to the tattoos they had on their chest and back, police said, adding that it constituted a petty crime. |
At least it is not a crime to be a foreigner, which makes us better than people with tattoos.
I can understand if the Sauna owners want to keep gangsters out of their place, but going to a sauna with a tattoo is a petty crime? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| UknowsI wrote: |
http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_97972.html
| http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_97972.html wrote: |
Two gangsters with tattoos covering their upper bodies were fined 50,000 won ($44) for bathing at a public bath.
Their presence was apparently intimidating due to the tattoos they had on their chest and back, police said, adding that it constituted a petty crime. |
At least it is not a crime to be a foreigner, which makes us better than people with tattoos.
I can understand if the Sauna owners want to keep gangsters out of their place, but going to a sauna with a tattoo is a petty crime? |
No...it was their "intimidating presence" apparently. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| UknowsI wrote: |
http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_97972.html
| http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/11/117_97972.html wrote: |
Two gangsters with tattoos covering their upper bodies were fined 50,000 won ($44) for bathing at a public bath.
Their presence was apparently intimidating due to the tattoos they had on their chest and back, police said, adding that it constituted a petty crime. |
At least it is not a crime to be a foreigner, which makes us better than people with tattoos.
I can understand if the Sauna owners want to keep gangsters out of their place, but going to a sauna with a tattoo is a petty crime? |
No...it was their "intimidating presence" apparently. |
Yes and that intimidating presence was quoted as being due to their tattoos, thus the tattoos were the issue.
Keep up with the reading comp |
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