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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
Sorry SR but a lot of the fundamental foundations of What we call western society, it's beliefs, institutions, political insitutions and systems, outlooks, philosophies, evolved from Greece and then Rome.
Without the above there is no concievable way we would live in societies recongisable to the ones we live in today.
That doesn't mean Christianity hasn't shaped them either, but it like comparing the doors and windows of a house to the ground under it and the foundations it was built upon as well as the very stone it is made from.
The Greek ideas on the state and their unique take on the concept of the individual, and also the forms (inlcuing in a large way gemeotry and math) and in no small way at all, the concept of the atom are just so part of what NW European and NA society are and have become it is impossible to overlook it.
Of course they in turn were influened from the Arab world and India and no culture lives in isolation (hi Korea) but the directions in which they took all of the above subjects are essential to what western societies are today and in fact, on a structural and technical level what the rest of the world is becoming. |
Well it seems like we mostly agree on the nature of transfer of culture.
Of course I would disagree with the degree of impact of Christianity. I think Christianity's influence was significant in concepts of human rights, individual conscience, tolerance, and work ethic. Combine that with the works of Christian philosophers when it comes to reason and logic, and Christian scientists (yes they actually did exist!) as well as some of the more darker aspects promoting a delivering of the Message across the world and I would submit that their contribution was at the very least equal to, and in my view, more than the Greco-Roman tradition.
That's not to say that Classicism wasn't a massive influence either. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:37 am Post subject: |
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The stewards of Christianity certainly kept alive, revived and built upon classical thought. They also abused it hindered it's evolution, hence the need for the enlightenment.
Anyway, Classical Greece is generally considered by western academia to be the seminal culture which provided the foundation of Western civilization.
I can't say more than that and were I to go into more detail I'd either be regurgatating any number of books or websites that you could yourself go and peruse or I'd need to write a thesis, in which case here would not be the place for me to do so.
I'll mkae do with some wiki-fu (at least I'm admiting it) instead and leave it there.
| Quote: |
| Ancient Greek philosophy focused on the role of reason and inquiry. In many ways, it had an important influence on modern philosophy, as well as modern science. Clear unbroken lines of influence lead from ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophers, to medieval Muslim philosophers and Islamic scientists, to the European Renaissance and Enlightenment, to the secular sciences of the modern day. |
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| Ancient Greek society placed considerable emphasis upon literature. Many authors consider the western literary tradition to have begun with the epic poems The Iliad and The Odyssey |
| Quote: |
| Via the Roman Empire, Greek culture came to be foundational to Western culture in general. The Byzantine Empire inherited Classical Greek culture directly, without Latin intermediation, and the preservation of classical Greek learning in medieval Byzantine tradition further exerted strong influence on the Slavs and later on the Islamic Golden Age and the Western European Renaissance. A modern revival of Classical Greek learning took place in the Neoclassicism movement in 18th and 19th century Europe and the Americas. |
No to mention literally being the first ever civilisation to make practicing of medicine a distinct professional field and of doing the same thing for mathematics, ie considering it valuable as a field of study in itself regardless of it's pracitcal applications and in fact it's methodical prservacion of words and ideas - the cannon - was implicit in making sure the bible itself was preserved for prosperity during the days of the early Christian church.
I could go on, but as I said it is a course of study in itself (as I'm sure you know) and anybody does themself a huge disservice by not finding out just how seminal the Greek traditions were in the development, preservation and study of branches of knowledge as an aim in itself and how their thinker's legacies are to a massive, and I must repeat the word - fundamanetal - extent the world we see around us today outside of smaller, local isolated cultures/
Other cultures were learned and made discoveries but it was by and large the Ancient Greeks that first deliberalty made the effort to make learnign an end for it's own sake and synthesise, absorb and export them etc, as then did Rome and then did Britain and so on. We literally owe the creation and evolution of what we know as drama, modern medicine and science, the rule of law, the notion of the individual etc and a whole longer list of things to them.
| Quote: |
| contact with oriental cosmology and theology helped to liberate the early Greek philosophers' imagination; it certainly gave them many suggestive ideas. But they taught themselves to reason. Philosophy as we understand it is a Greek creation."[2] |
And our current poilitcal, academic and scietific institutions are built on those very philosophies and are much more infulential than the church, which though influential, as you say, in many facets of life and in the atrs and in modern though has often been rather a steward of western culture, especially through times of political instability and political regime change and a much much later player than the major foundation. It may have changed the decorative and color schemes of the house in my analogy in my earlier post, but without the house - there is no house for Christianity to live in!
Footnotes to plato.
This is obvious seeing how far antiquity predates Christianity anyway.
Good discussion though. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| jaj, why does that name look familiar -- oh yeah, the thread on adding poems. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Actually up until the 15th century your average Westerner thought that algebraic numbers were the work of Satan or Magic. They actually looked up to non-Western scholars for knowledge. And in the 17th and 18th century racist Western historians and philosophers papered over the true history of Europe because they were jealous, embarrassed and humiliated at how much Europe had received/copied from non-European sources.
| The Floating World wrote: |
The stewards of Christianity certainly kept alive, revived and built upon classical thought. They also abused it hindered it's evolution, hence the need for the enlightenment.
Anyway, Classical Greece is generally considered by western academia to be the seminal culture which provided the foundation of Western civilization.I can't say more than that and were I to go into more detail I'd either be regurgatating any number of books or websites that you could yourself go and peruse or I'd need to write a thesis, in which case here would not be the place for me to do so.
I'll mkae do with some wiki-fu (at least I'm admiting it) instead and leave it there.
| Quote: |
| Ancient Greek philosophy focused on the role of reason and inquiry. In many ways, it had an important influence on modern philosophy, as well as modern science. Clear unbroken lines of influence lead from ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophers, to medieval Muslim philosophers and Islamic scientists, to the European Renaissance and Enlightenment, to the secular sciences of the modern day. |
| Quote: |
| Ancient Greek society placed considerable emphasis upon literature. Many authors consider the western literary tradition to have begun with the epic poems The Iliad and The Odyssey |
| Quote: |
| Via the Roman Empire, Greek culture came to be foundational to Western culture in general. The Byzantine Empire inherited Classical Greek culture directly, without Latin intermediation, and the preservation of classical Greek learning in medieval Byzantine tradition further exerted strong influence on the Slavs and later on the Islamic Golden Age and the Western European Renaissance. A modern revival of Classical Greek learning took place in the Neoclassicism movement in 18th and 19th century Europe and the Americas. |
No to mention literally being the first ever civilisation to make practicing of medicine a distinct professional field and of doing the same thing for mathematics, ie considering it valuable as a field of study in itself regardless of it's pracitcal applications and in fact it's methodical prservacion of words and ideas - the cannon - was implicit in making sure the bible itself was preserved for prosperity during the days of the early Christian church.
I could go on, but as I said it is a course of study in itself (as I'm sure you know) and anybody does themself a huge disservice by not finding out just how seminal the Greek traditions were in the development, preservation and study of branches of knowledge as an aim in itself and how their thinker's legacies are to a massive, and I must repeat the word - fundamanetal - extent the world we see around us today outside of smaller, local isolated cultures/
Other cultures were learned and made discoveries but it was by and large the Ancient Greeks that first deliberalty made the effort to make learnign an end for it's own sake and synthesise, absorb and export them etc, as then did Rome and then did Britain and so on. We literally owe the creation and evolution of what we know as drama, modern medicine and science, the rule of law, the notion of the individual etc and a whole longer list of things to them.
| Quote: |
| contact with oriental cosmology and theology helped to liberate the early Greek philosophers' imagination; it certainly gave them many suggestive ideas. But they taught themselves to reason. Philosophy as we understand it is a Greek creation."[2] |
And our current poilitcal, academic and scietific institutions are built on those very philosophies and are much more infulential than the church, which though influential, as you say, in many facets of life and in the atrs and in modern though has often been rather a steward of western culture, especially through times of political instability and political regime change and a much much later player than the major foundation. It may have changed the decorative and color schemes of the house in my analogy in my earlier post, but without the house - there is no house for Christianity to live in!
Footnotes to plato.
This is obvious seeing how far antiquity predates Christianity anyway.
Good discussion though. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
Actually up until the 15th century your average Westerner thought that algebraic numbers were the work of Satan or Magic. They actually looked up to non-Western scholars for knowledge. And in the 17th and 18th century racist Western historians and philosophers papered over the true history of Europe because they were jealous, embarrassed and humiliated at how much Europe had received/copied from non-European sources.
| The Floating World wrote: |
The stewards of Christianity certainly kept alive, revived and built upon classical thought. They also abused it hindered it's evolution, hence the need for the enlightenment.
Anyway, Classical Greece is generally considered by western academia to be the seminal culture which provided the foundation of Western civilization.I can't say more than that and were I to go into more detail I'd either be regurgatating any number of books or websites that you could yourself go and peruse or I'd need to write a thesis, in which case here would not be the place for me to do so.
I'll mkae do with some wiki-fu (at least I'm admiting it) instead and leave it there.
| Quote: |
| Ancient Greek philosophy focused on the role of reason and inquiry. In many ways, it had an important influence on modern philosophy, as well as modern science. Clear unbroken lines of influence lead from ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophers, to medieval Muslim philosophers and Islamic scientists, to the European Renaissance and Enlightenment, to the secular sciences of the modern day. |
| Quote: |
| Ancient Greek society placed considerable emphasis upon literature. Many authors consider the western literary tradition to have begun with the epic poems The Iliad and The Odyssey |
| Quote: |
| Via the Roman Empire, Greek culture came to be foundational to Western culture in general. The Byzantine Empire inherited Classical Greek culture directly, without Latin intermediation, and the preservation of classical Greek learning in medieval Byzantine tradition further exerted strong influence on the Slavs and later on the Islamic Golden Age and the Western European Renaissance. A modern revival of Classical Greek learning took place in the Neoclassicism movement in 18th and 19th century Europe and the Americas. |
No to mention literally being the first ever civilisation to make practicing of medicine a distinct professional field and of doing the same thing for mathematics, ie considering it valuable as a field of study in itself regardless of it's pracitcal applications and in fact it's methodical prservacion of words and ideas - the cannon - was implicit in making sure the bible itself was preserved for prosperity during the days of the early Christian church.
I could go on, but as I said it is a course of study in itself (as I'm sure you know) and anybody does themself a huge disservice by not finding out just how seminal the Greek traditions were in the development, preservation and study of branches of knowledge as an aim in itself and how their thinker's legacies are to a massive, and I must repeat the word - fundamanetal - extent the world we see around us today outside of smaller, local isolated cultures/
Other cultures were learned and made discoveries but it was by and large the Ancient Greeks that first deliberalty made the effort to make learnign an end for it's own sake and synthesise, absorb and export them etc, as then did Rome and then did Britain and so on. We literally owe the creation and evolution of what we know as drama, modern medicine and science, the rule of law, the notion of the individual etc and a whole longer list of things to them.
| Quote: |
| contact with oriental cosmology and theology helped to liberate the early Greek philosophers' imagination; it certainly gave them many suggestive ideas. But they taught themselves to reason. Philosophy as we understand it is a Greek creation."[2] |
And our current poilitcal, academic and scietific institutions are built on those very philosophies and are much more infulential than the church, which though influential, as you say, in many facets of life and in the atrs and in modern though has often been rather a steward of western culture, especially through times of political instability and political regime change and a much much later player than the major foundation. It may have changed the decorative and color schemes of the house in my analogy in my earlier post, but without the house - there is no house for Christianity to live in!
Footnotes to plato.
This is obvious seeing how far antiquity predates Christianity anyway.
Good discussion though. |
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Get back over to koreansentry, you are clueless beyond compare.
It was called the dark ages and then the renaisance. Just becaue the dark ages happened, doesn't man there wasn't knowledge before it. I'll not bother engaging in it in detail like I did wih steel as I know for a fact you're a sentrarian. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| And in the 17th and 18th century racist Western historians and philosophers papered over the true history of Europe because they were jealous, embarrassed and humiliated at how much Europe had received/copied from non-European sources. |
I'd agree with the first part of your statement so have omitted it. The quoted section, however, requires more analysis. What you've written there sounds dangerously like opinion. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| And in the 17th and 18th century racist Western historians and philosophers papered over the true history of Europe because they were jealous, embarrassed and humiliated at how much Europe had received/copied from non-European sources. |
I'd agree with the first part of your statement so have omitted it. The quoted section, however, requires more analysis. What you've written there sounds dangerously like opinion. |
That's because it is. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| And in the 17th and 18th century racist Western historians and philosophers papered over the true history of Europe because they were jealous, embarrassed and humiliated at how much Europe had received/copied from non-European sources. |
I'd agree with the first part of your statement so have omitted it. The quoted section, however, requires more analysis. What you've written there sounds dangerously like opinion. |
Morrisonhotel, I am just challenging the points made in Floating's two posts. You're saying my post sounds like opinion but what about Floating's post? Couldn't they also be construed as mere opinion? Actually, much of what Floating writes reads like a child's fairy tale.
For example, here's what Francis bacon said about some Chinese inventions:
| Quote: |
Francis Bacon on the Significance
of Three Chinese Inventions:
Printing, Gunpowder, and the Compass
Chinese inventions of printing, gunpowder, and the mariner�s compass were brought to Europe by Arab traders during the Renaissance and Reformation. Francis Bacon (1561-1626), a leading philosopher, politician, and adviser to King James I of England, was unaware of the origins of these inventions but deeply impressed by their significance when he wrote:
�It is well to observe the force and virtue and consequence of discoveries. These are to be seen nowhere more clearly than those three which were unknown to the ancients [the Greeks], and of which the origin, though recent, is obscure and inglorious; namely printing, gunpowder, and the magnet. For these three have changed the whole face and stage of things throughout the world, the first in literature, the second in warfare, the third in navigation; whence have followed innumerable changes; insomuch that no empire, no sect, no star, seems to have exerted greater power and influence in human affairs than these three mechanical discoveries.�
� Francis Bacon
In Peter Amey, The Scientific Revolution (Greenhaven World History Program: Greenhaven Press), 23. |
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/song/tech/printing.htm
But according to The Floating World, it's all about the Greeks. 
Also, if you read Bacon�s quote you�ll see he never mentions China. How is it possible that Bacon could not have known that these enormous gifts to human civilization were actually Chinese in origin? Europe had after all spent centuries trying to reverse engineer, copy, steal these inventions. And many many more, btw, which had huge influences on the West. The West could not be what it is today without these inventions.
I can�t go back in time to interview past European philosophers and historians but keep in mind that it was at this time that Europeans began to create theories of race and white supremacy. It�s not a gigantic leap to venture that these historians were also adherents to these racial theories and that this influenced the histories they produced with the overriding need to give disproportionate credit to the Greeks. It�s these histories which are now taught, unfortunately, as immutable truth in Western schools and which TFW is merely repeating for us. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Stop trolling.
I am talking about mainly philosophical influence on western culture and society, not inventions (though through your much needed education you WILL come to find that the disposition to utilise such technology in the way we do stems also from Greek influence  )
Anyway this is my last reply on the matter. I've studied in depth Greek and Roman antiquity as well as the enlightenent and rennaisance and you're just cherry picking random internet / wiki quotes to try and prove that 'Asia has more influence than you think it does' - when that wasn't even the topic being discussed between me and steelrails in the first place, it was which had greater influence on modern western civilisation - Greek civilisation or Christianity.
Your nonsense about RACE (which YOU ALONE) bought into this thread - quoted below - are not wanted here. Go back to sentry. NOBODY here except you is trying to make this a racial issue or an 'occident vs orient' debate.
If you really have no understanding of how the Greek legacies of geometry, the individual, the state, the atom, the forms etc (not that other nations didn't have their verisons of some of them, but it was the Greek versions that influenced Western Europe etc) you have a lot of schooling to do.
Perosnally I have no racial bias at all, I like yoga - it originated in the East - great! No problemo.
You will get much more of the type of discourse you are chomping at the bit for on koreansentry and it will be much more welcomed there.
| Quote: |
| European philosophers and historians but keep in mind that it was at this time that Europeans began to create theories of race and white supremacy. It�s not a gigantic leap to venture that these historians were also adherents to these racial theories and that this influenced the histories they produced |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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I understand what you wrote. I'm just disagreeing with you and actually steelrails also, namely that Greece or Christianity, were the main reasons that explain modern western civilization.
For example, Greek philosophers believed that the power of reason alone could lead to knowledge. Does that sound like modern Western "technical" thinking as you put it? You wrote in your previous post that the Greeks invented math, even though you�re backtracking and now only mention geometry. This is of course absurd. The Greeks didn't invent math. Greece was just one of many countries at that time. If any peoples invented the math we use today it was the Arabs and the Indians, who invented the Arabic numerals we use today and �Al-gebra� that everyone learns in school today. Egypt was also a superpower at this time. Pythagoras for example, studied mathematics in Egypt. Greek drama was influenced by Egyptian theatre. Clearly they all helped and influenced each other but all we hear about in the West is about the Greeks.
Again, while Greece certainly had an influence on Europe, as did Christianity, there were also more powerful factors that formed the modern Europe we have today.
And yes, I understand your point that Europeans share a common bond, it�s called feudalism and ethnicity/race. The same argument can be made for every other area of the planet. There were East Asians before Confucius, there were Indians before Hinduism, Arabs before Islam.
You�re making a blindingly obvious point, a point I might add that is often made over at Stormfront (Christianity is a diabolical Jewish plot! lol) and usually by folks with Thor or another red-bearded Viking as an avatar, and where I�m sure you picked up these ideas. And which makes it ironic when you accuse me of coming from Koreasentry.
| The Floating World wrote: |
Stop trolling.
I am talking about mainly philosophical influence on western culture and society, not inventions (though through your much needed education you WILL come to find that the disposition to utilise such technology in the way we do stems also from Greek influence )
Anyway this is my last reply on the matter. I've studied in depth Greek and Roman antiquity as well as the enlightenent and rennaisance and you're just cherry picking random internet / wiki quotes to try and prove that 'Asia has more influence than you think it does' - when that wasn't even the topic being discussed between me and steelrails in the first place, it was which had greater influence on modern western civilisation - Greek civilisation or Christianity.
Your nonsense about RACE (which YOU ALONE) bought into this thread - quoted below - are not wanted here. Go back to sentry. NOBODY here except you is trying to make this a racial issue or an 'occident vs orient' debate.
If you really have no understanding of how the Greek legacies of geometry, the individual, the state, the atom, the forms etc (not that other nations didn't have their verisons of some of them, but it was the Greek versions that influenced Western Europe etc) you have a lot of schooling to do.
Perosnally I have no racial bias at all, I like yoga - it originated in the East - great! No problemo.
You will get much more of the type of discourse you are chomping at the bit for on koreansentry and it will be much more welcomed there.
| Quote: |
| European philosophers and historians but keep in mind that it was at this time that Europeans began to create theories of race and white supremacy. It�s not a gigantic leap to venture that these historians were also adherents to these racial theories and that this influenced the histories they produced |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Komerica wrote -
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| you wrote in your previous post that the Greeks invented math |
Everyone else who read the thread -
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| Whoah there! Oh no he didn't! It was the way they interpreted math that he claimed was unique! |
Me
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| Meh, not worth getting into it. |
Komerica wrote
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You�re making a blindingly obvious point, a point I might add that is often made over at Stormfront (Christianity is a diabolical Jewish plot! lol) |
Anyone else on the planet with grade 6 reading age or above wrote -
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| Wait a darn minute - oh no he didn't!! |
I wrote -
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| Obvious troll effort. A particularly poor one in fact, given the level of complexity they usually exhibit at times on dave's. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| One may argue how much Classicism and Christianity influenced the West, but there is no doubt that those are the driving forces behind Western Civilization... |
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chrisjbrooks
Joined: 04 Dec 2010
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| What about the sheer amount of English words used in Korean. You can't say that isn't American/western influence. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| One may argue how much Classicism and Christianity influenced the West, but there is no doubt that those are the driving forces behind Western Civilization... |
Yes, I agree but I also think that there were many other forces at work here. Some want us to believe in this fairy tale version where there is a clear line to the Greeks and the rest are mere "stewards" of Greek learning. It's the pure version excised of any non-European influence except as bit players, mere scenery on the historic stage.
It is much more complicated than that of course. Feudalism, technology transfer from the east that revolutionalized agriculture, textiles, war making technology, printing, clothing, etc, nation states, trade and the rise of capitalism, the fall of the roman empire and the Catholic Church in northern Europe, climatic changes, geographic peculiarities, etc. All of the above and more explain how the West developed. Can we really say that the Greeks had any influence in these? Really?
Sure the classics helped but why then didn't Eastern Europe also develop in the same way? After all they also received the Arabic translations. For that matter why did Greece itself descend into obscurity? Obviously, other forces were at work that explain Western European culture.
Here�s an interesting list of Arabic loan words in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arabic_loanwords_in_English |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Actually up until the 15th century your average Westerner thought that algebraic numbers were the work of Satan or Magic. They actually looked up to non-Western scholars for knowledge. And in the 17th and 18th century racist Western historians and philosophers papered over the true history of Europe because they were jealous, embarrassed and humiliated at how much Europe had received/copied from non-European sources.
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THis is not generally under despute. Algebra (the very name is arabic) and so many other ideas came from other cultures...cultures that were considered barbaric and sub human back in the 17th by Europeans.
Even last centuery, musicians and Hollywood has stolen (literally) songs and ideas to make them 'their' own without so much as a nod from the people who they considered underclass.
You know this, c'mon  |
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