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The East Sea
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wylde

Joined: 14 Apr 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:52 am Post subject:

The Lemon wrote:

Quote:

do some more research bro...

Wylde- In this case, "bro", you'd do well to provide a reference for your information. You've failed to do so. And this was a critical oversight.

...Because, where did Wylde's information come from?
Well, Google reports that it was written by that bastion of truth and impartiality,
THE GOVERNMENT OF NORTH KOREA.
http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/nk-un2.htm

And in this case, it matters greatly who's doing the storytelling. Pure propaganda.

Quote:

It is "East Sea" - Not "Sea of Japan"
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Permanent Mission To The United Nations
820 Second Avenue, 13th Floor. New York, N.Y. 10017
Tel: 1(212) 972-3105/3106 Fax: 1(212) 972-3154

April 1,1999, Press Release

http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/nk-un2.htm

theres 1 site "bro"

http://www.gracegalleries.com/Grt_BritainListings.htm

theres another 1 "bro"

heres 1 more "bro"

http://www.korea.net/issue/eastsea/map_app1.asp

last 1 "bro"

http://www.momaf.go.kr/eng/intl/eastsea/g_intro.asp

Quote:

And in this case, it matters greatly who's doing the storytelling. Pure propaganda.

no "bro"

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject:

Sometimes I think the real purpose of ultranationalism is to entertain the foreigners. I take personal responsibility for the whole Korea/Corea thing. For several years before the World Cup (when the issue first appeared) I worked at a place that held a lot of international conferences. Every time they wanted me to check their spelling on a new banner mentioning the up-coming World Cup I told them it should be the Japan-Korea World Cup because of alphabetical order. Considering the impact I've had on public issues of this importance I have written my congressmen about changing the name of the US to the Republic of Aardvark, but so far nothing has come of it.

The Lemon

Joined: 11 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:32 pm Post subject:

Wylde - just to recap, every source you used was from the north or south Korean governments, or "www.korea.net", except for one British gallery site for the display of one map. And you failed to disclose these absurdly biased "references". You'll recall back in university what professors do when you neglect to properly attribute the quotes you use - they're meaningless unless the reader can evaluate the source, too. It looks something like this:

wylde

Joined: 14 Apr 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:00 pm Post subject:

of course they are going to be korean sites. you think the US gives a stuff about this?

1 map? check again.

the french naming the sea of japan.. yea right.. about as much right to that as korea does with naming any part of europe.

Quote:

Even on the maps printed in Japan at that time, the sea was clearly named "Sea of Korea". For example:

(a) "Map of Asia" drawn by Katsuragawa in 1784
(b) The revised edition of "World Atlas" by Takahashi in 1810
(c) "New World Atlas" by Kisaku in 1847, and
(d) "Map of the Great Empire of Korea" published in 1908 by the "Japan-Korea Printing Company", whose share was held by the Japanese

here are the japanese naming the 'sea of japan' the 'sea of korea'..

you mention the bias put forward by the korean websites.. i can't see a bias if there is irrefutable proof that koreans had named this sea 2000 years ago and also the japanese were using the same name on some of its earlier maps.

reading is a good skill to learn - maybe you should try it.

The Lemon

Joined: 11 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:42 pm Post subject:

Quote:

here are the japanese naming the 'sea of japan' the 'sea of korea'..

No. Here are the North Koreans *claiming* the Japanese labelled maps "Sea of Korea". These are the same North Koreans who claim unicorns flew over Paekdusan when Kim Jong Il was born.

wylde

Joined: 14 Apr 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject:

The Lemon wrote:

Quote:

here are the japanese naming the 'sea of japan' the 'sea of korea'..

No. Here are the North Koreans *claiming* the Japanese labelled maps "Sea of Korea". These are the same North Koreans who claim unicorns flew over Paekdusan when Kim Jong Il was born.

i understand now.

exactly the same as you *claiming* that it is bs..

makes perfect sense. Rolling Eyes

kangnamdragon

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject:

Nothing claimed by the North Koreans can be taken seriously.

Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject:

Quote:

the french naming the sea of japan.. yea right.. about as much right to that as korea does with naming any part of europe.

Perhaps you are unaware that many places have been given new names in Korean. For example, England is called YongGook. But now that you've decided that we can't go around renaming things, will you be calling this country by it's proper name, Taehan-min'guk? I'm just curious if you practice what you preach.

Quote:

here are the japanese naming the 'sea of japan' the 'sea of korea'..

That list was compiled for a U.N. meeting where it was decided that no one would consider because it was presented at a technical meeting and the English name of the sea is strictly a political meeting, thus Korea and Japan were told to resolve it themselves. As well, no actual proof that the claims were correct were presented such as a picture of the maps claimed.

Quote:

you mention the bias put forward by the korean websites.. i can't see a bias if there is irrefutable proof that koreans had named this sea 2000 years ago and also the japanese were using the same name on some of its earlier maps.

Technically, it was foreigners who gave it the name "Sea of Japan" in much the same way it was foreigners who also gave it the name "Sea of Korea", "Sea of Corea", "Oriental Sea", "Gulf of Korea", "Gulf of Japan", "West Japan Sea", "West Nippon Sea", "Gulf of Nippon", "Sea of Nippon" and so on. "Sea of Japan" become dominant simply because Japan became the recognized name of Nippon and had opened up trade routes first. Ironically, Japan was lobbying to be recognized as Nippon instead of English label Japan. It was companies who started going to the area that began calling the "Sea of Japan" that because Japan became far better known than Korea who made a hostage for life of anyone who landed on their shores.

Quote:

reading is a good skill to learn - maybe you should try it.

I fail to see the value in insulting someone for asking that you not try to use slippery and questionable debate tactics as a primary method to maintain your stated position.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject:

Gord wrote:

Quote:

the french naming the sea of japan.. yea right.. about as much right to that as korea does with naming any part of europe.

Perhaps you are unaware that many places have been given new names in Korean. For example, England is called YongGook.

To carry the analogy further, there are, to my knowledge, no civic groups in England calling for the (Korean) renaming of "Yeongguk" to, say, "Aengeullaendeu".

Yet the Koreans are not satisfied with having the name "Donghae" and using it, they insist that English-speakers also refer to it the way they direct.

Gord wrote:

But now that you've decided that we can't go around renaming things, will you be calling this country by it's proper name, Taehan-min'guk? I'm just curious if you practice what you preach.

The government of Taehanminguk, of course, does not object to the country being known in English as "Korea", the "Republic of Korea", or "South Korea".

Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:14 pm Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

The government of Taehanminguk, of course, does not object to the country being known in English as "Korea", the "Republic of Korea", or "South Korea".

That's because they know their role!

Ironically, North Korea had a hissy fit last year at the U.N. and started calling the Japanese representatives "Japs" because they has referred to North Korea as... "North Korea", instead of their official English name of "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

wylde

Joined: 14 Apr 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject:

cool.. hey gord.. i have a day off today... lets go

wylde wrote:

the french naming the sea of japan.. yea right.. about as much right to that as korea does with naming any part of europe.

Gord wrote:

they named it yonggook cuz its a different language i spose.. it's not like they called england 'america' is it? which the latter is like what the frenchman did in 1602.

wylde wrote:

here are the japanese naming the 'sea of japan' the 'sea of korea'..

Gord wrote:

wylde wrote:

Quote:

notice where they specify 'permanent mission'?

wylde wrote:

Gord wrote:

ok. fair enough. maybe we should change the name of america to england cuz the majority of english speakers in the world are american these days.. maybe we should just change the language name, forget english.. just call it american.

the japanese themselves were calling it the 'sea of korea' because they already had an east sea. i have no proof that these maps exist, i have done search after search and failed but i can understand how troublesome it would be if there was evidence available to prove koreas argument. i spose they have done their best to get rid of all the maps that contradict their claim.

wylde wrote:

reading is a good skill to learn - maybe you should try it.

Gord wrote:

I fail to see the value in insulting someone for asking that you not try to use slippery and questionable debate tactics as a primary method to maintain your stated position.

the insult was a defense to the lemon saying that i couldn't back up my stuff... when actually he was doing the same as me.. waffling on with no proof..

Gord wrote:

Ironically, North Korea had a hissy fit last year at the U.N. and started calling the Japanese representatives "Japs" because they has referred to North Korea as... "North Korea", instead of their official English name of "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

i see nothing wrong with that.. i am not a fan of the dprk but tit for tat seems even to me.

have a nice day

Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject:

wylde wrote:

they named it yonggook cuz its a different language i spose.. it's not like they called england 'america' is it? which the latter is like what the frenchman did in 1602.

I don't understand. First you say it's wrong to give new names to places, then you turn around and say it's ok so long as it's not a name already in use elsewhere? You're playing both sides of the same coin.

wylde wrote:

Quote:

notice where they specify 'permanent mission'?

If you are not going to read what you are citing as supporting you, then don't bother citing it.

The list that "The Permanent Mission to the United Nations" provided was at the meeting here, http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/En-Report-7thUNCSGN.pdf , to discuss technical problems of naming places, such as local names being unpronouncable in other languages (such as in English). The DPRK brought up a claim that the "Sea of Japan" should be labelled "East Sea" and presented a bunch of reasons why, including claims that maps in Japan had called it "Sea of Korea" five centuries ago. The meeting says "well, that's not a technical problem, that's a political issue. You two solve it on your own time." and that was the end of it.

There was no proof that the claims were valid, nor were they resubmitted again to my knowledge.

And you would have known this had you read what you were citing instead of incorrectly summarizing what you hoped it said.

wylde wrote:

What does this have to do with anything other than a token attempt to shift attention away from your erroded position?

Quote:

the japanese themselves were calling it the 'sea of korea' because they already had an east sea. i have no proof that these maps exist, i have done search after search and failed but i can understand how troublesome it would be if there was evidence available to prove koreas argument. i spose they have done their best to get rid of all the maps that contradict their claim.

As discussed before, it was called "Sea of Japan" because it was easier to identify by foreigners who knew where Japan was and didn't know where Korea was, especially since Korea had a bad habit of making a hostage for life anyone who showed up on their shores, as well as trying to sink the occasional ship that came close to shore.

wylde wrote:

the insult was a defense to the lemon saying that i couldn't back up my stuff... when actually he was doing the same as me.. waffling on with no proof..

The problem was that most everything stated could be traced back to a government mouthpiece that plays fast and loose with facts and fiction, and you had failed to disclose this.

Quote:

i see nothing wrong with that.. i am not a fan of the dprk but tit for tat seems even to me.

You see nothing wrong with calling someone with a racial slur because they used the common English name for a country instead of the fraud of an English name they claim?

wylde

Joined: 14 Apr 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:28 pm Post subject:

wylde wrote:

they named it yonggook cuz its a different language i spose.. it's not like they called england 'america' is it? which the latter is like what the frenchman did in 1602.

Gord wrote:

now you are inventing stuff again.. its a real pain when pull things from your hat like that... i never said it is wrong to use the same name twice... i said japan already has an east sea, meaning, it would be difficult for them to have been 2 sides as an east sea.. that much i concede..
however, it doesn't change the fact it was name first by koreans and then changed by foreigners..

wylde wrote:

Quote:

notice where they specify 'permanent mission'?

Gord wrote:

The DPRK brought up a claim that the "Sea of Japan" should be labelled "East Sea" and presented a bunch of reasons why, including claims that maps in Japan had called it "Sea of Korea" five centuries ago. The meeting says "well, that's not a technical problem, that's a political issue. You two solve it on your own time." and that was the end of it.

There was no proof that the claims were valid, nor were they resubmitted again to my knowledge.
And you would have known this had you read what you were citing instead of incorrectly summarizing what you hoped it said.

given my knowledge is not comprehensive on that meeting i cannot argue against that.. but then you continue with your proof as "to my knowledge". indeed korea did try to solve it.. offering many suggestions but japan rufused every one.

wylde wrote:

Gord wrote:

What does this have to do with anything other than a token attempt to shift attention away from your erroded position?

actually this is my strongest point. if it were called the 'east sea' 2000 years ago by korea and the europeans changed it cuz they used it to go to japan and had no relationship with korea... that's practically the same scenario we have currently with english... the language is english not american but the majority of the world want to speak with american english... why not change it from english to american? based on your erroded argument that would make perfect sense.

Quote:

Gord wrote:

and america becomes england or the other way around.. just using your logic here.. pretty silly isn't it? regardless of what it was called first of all... just let some foreign boneheads call it want they want cuz they use it sometimes.

wylde wrote:

the insult was a defense to the lemon saying that i couldn't back up my stuff... when actually he was doing the same as me.. waffling on with no proof..

Gord wrote:

The problem was that most everything stated could be traced back to a government mouthpiece that plays fast and loose with facts and fiction, and you had failed to disclose this.

there is no problem where my information came from... it is a one sided battle on the part of koreans vs the rest of the world (who couldn't give a toss) there are not many other places on the net that talk about this issue.

wylde wrote:

i see nothing wrong with that.. i am not a fan of the dprk but tit for tat seems even to me.

Gord wrote:

You see nothing wrong with calling someone with a racial slur because they used the common English name for a country instead of the fraud of an English name they claim?

nope. to a north korean it might be it might be offensive hence the retaliation. makes sense if you take the blinkers off.

shakuhachi

Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

do some more research bro...

All you proved is that the Koreans called it the "east sea". Although it might make sense for the Koreans to call the Sea of Japan the "east sea" (because it is east of Korea) it make no sense for Japan (being west of Japan) or any other country to use that name.

That sea has been well established as the sea of Japan for centuries now... let the Koreans call it what they want.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject:

shakuhachi wrote:

Quote:

do some more research bro...

And it seems especially amusing that the Koreans, having prided themselves on being the "hermit kingdom" and disdaining either knowing the outside world or having the outside world know of them, therefore naturally naming the surrounding bodies of water simplistically as the "West Sea", "South Sea", and "East Sea" now demand that the outside world accept these names.

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