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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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 Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Contracts are based on what you agreed to, now what you would have agreed to. |
Right, so they wouldn't have agreed to it. They agreed to airfare in case of RETURNING, not for the teacher to stay. How hard is this concept? You people are tossing words around blindly.
You want to fight it, go ahead. I am not the one you need to convince. When you go to court, and if you have your way, hagwons will catch on and then they will make sure the contracts are harder on all of us.
This is not going to be good or help us in the long run. Use common sense. Negotiate a higher salary instead. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Koreatimes' argument seems to be that you're making some kind of contract with Korea by signing a contract with a Korean employer. |
No, I am saying the employer doesn't know what the employee will do. If you work for a company and they agree to provide you with a company car because you don't have one, then when you get one, do you still feel entitled to the company car? Can the company take it back? |
If you signed a contract saying that you would receive a company car, then yes, you are still entitled to the company car, and no, the company can't take it back. Unless, of course, there's a clause in the contract stating something about acquiring a car on your own requiring that you relinquish the car if you get a car of your own, similar to the requirement that there be a clause stating the school will only pay for a return ticket if your visa will be expiring. In the absence of such clauses, you're wrong, legally speaking, which is all that really matters in this case.
And, again:
| Wiktionary wrote: |
| return: To come or go back (to a place or person). |
By definition, taking a trip home at the end of your contract is a return. I'm inclined to think you're straight trolling at this point. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Koreatimes' argument seems to be that you're making some kind of contract with Korea by signing a contract with a Korean employer. |
No, I am saying the employer doesn't know what the employee will do. If you work for a company and they agree to provide you with a company car because you don't have one, then when you get one, do you still feel entitled to the company car? Can the company take it back? |
If you signed a contract saying that you would receive a company car, then yes, you are still entitled to the company car, and no, the company can't take it back. Unless, of course, there's a clause in the contract stating something about acquiring a car on your own requiring that you relinquish the car if you get a car of your own, similar to the requirement that there be a clause stating the school will only pay for a return ticket if your visa will be expiring. In the absence of such clauses, you're wrong, legally speaking, which is all that really matters in this case.
And, again:
| Wiktionary wrote: |
| return: To come or go back (to a place or person). |
By definition, taking a trip home at the end of your contract is a return. I'm inclined to think you're straight trolling at this point. |
Alright, so now you stop working for the company. The real question I had planned, was, do you still get access to the car?
Right now, you might scare hagwons with threats of legal action. They might even pay you off as a way to move on with their lives. Be an annoyance. Do what you can. However, this will never become a standard. It is a waste of your time to pursue airfare home. Hagwons will write out transportation policies.
The thing about cheating any system is that when you are caught, you either pay for it or stricter measures are put in place to contain you. I would rather negotiate 100,000 more per month than go through the trouble of collecting it. Your choice though. If you pursue legal actions, then hagwons will change in concert to any damaging changes. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| By definition, taking a trip home at the end of your contract is a return. I'm inclined to think you're straight trolling at this point. |
People who accuse others of cheating (in the context of a relationship) are often the ones doing the cheating. Are you trolling by chance?
A return ticket is CLEARLY indicative of someone not staying at a hotel or visiting tourist spots. It is more associated with someone's home where they will LIVE, WORK, and SLEEP for a lengthy period of time.
Last edited by koreatimes on Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| A new contract is irrelevant to the point, as it's not mentioned in his first contract. |
Yes it is, and the contract doesn't have to spell out everything in the teacher's life. One part about law is that you cannot expect the other party to do something impossible. There was no way for the school to know the teacher would stay in the country.
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And that doesn't matter. He was promised 13 months pay, plus 2 airfare (and maybe other benefits, I don't know). He was given all but 1 airfare.
| koreatimes wrote: |
The contract they signed pertained to 1 year and 1 year only. If they wanted to get paid for airfare regardless if they stay in the country or leave, then they are the ones who should have added it in the contract. The employer wouldn't know and therefore couldn't be expected.
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Other way around. If the hagwon didn't want to pay for airfare that wasn't going to get used, they should have worded the contract differently. The hagwon was expecting to pay 2 airfares, and should still be required to pay the last one based on contract wording alone.
| koreatimes wrote: |
I don't know how much simpler to put it. Either you get it or you don't.
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Indeed.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| It does not specify when airfare needs to be obtained. |
It doesn't have to. Immigration office has rules to follow regarding this. The school reports the teacher, and then the teacher has to leave or change the status of their visa. It's clearly there.
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Where?
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| someone who wants to come a month early to get a feel of Korea before teaching shouldn't have their airfare paid either. |
No, because the teacher is bound to the visa. They should have the right to the airfare. After their visa is up, then they are not and must leave. This is very different. The teacher is allowed to enter the country early by virtue of the visa entry dates.
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Someone coming that early would need to come on a tourist visa, as the work visa starts at a very specific time relating to your first day of work.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Are you saying he shouldn't get that either? |
I already explained this. A salary is a regular payment. Airfare is only a one time deal coming and going. You don't regularly get paid in a year to enter and leave the country.
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Severance is a 1 time deal going. How is this argument valid?
| koreatimes wrote: |
It wasn't an analogy, it was estimating the costs.
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It was an analogy, because it was drawing a comparison. Its a bad estimation, since schools factor in incoming and outgoing airfares into their expenses, but not a second severance.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| A better one would be asking for 1 severance that was in your contract. That would sound fair and reasonable. |
My understanding is that he already got what he was owed. The airfare is about half of the severance and the second school would be saving the other half. It's a comparison, not an analogy. An analogy would have been more like, "Asking for airfare for 2 flights out of Korea is like Spock beaming up in two places at the same time on the Enterprise." |
Also a very bad analogy, as the school is expecting to pay for 1 flight, but not two.
The airfare expense is planned into the budget. It was in the contract that the teacher signed before he came here. It is owed to the teacher. It is not an unexpected expense. Regardless of how you feel about how the situation should work, the wording on the contract is clear and the teacher is owed what the contract says. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| By definition, taking a trip home at the end of your contract is a return. I'm inclined to think you're straight trolling at this point. |
People who accuse others of cheating (in the context of a relationship) are often the ones doing the cheating. Are you trolling by chance?
A return ticket is CLEARLY indicative of someone not staying at a hotel or visiting tourist spots. It is more associated with someone's home where they will LIVE, WORK, and SLEEP for a lengthy period of time. |
You're using words like "indicative" and "associated" to get around the fact that a return is going back to a place of origin. Intent is not factored into this definition.
Regardless, many of the contracts I've seen (mine included) SPECIFICALLY state that the airfare can be used to return home or for travel. Therefore, the definition of "return ticket", in terms of Korean schools, can include travel out of the country.
| koreatimes wrote: |
No, I am saying the employer doesn't know what the employee will do. If you work for a company and they agree to provide you with a company car because you don't have one, then when you get one, do you still feel entitled to the company car? Can the company take it back?
The purpose of the company car was to take you to work and back. Now that you have one, should you still be allowed access to the company car?
If it is in the contract, sure. However, there is nothing in the contract that says the employer must pay regardless if the teacher stays in the country. This is something teachers would need to have added, since they are the ones who would know if they are staying or returning. |
It's all based on wording. Since company cars usually aren't included in contracts, they are owned by the company and can be rescinded at any time. If they're mentioned in the contract, they are the property of the company unless the contract says otherwise.
There is nothing in the contract saying that the teachers don't get the money. Since it doesn't say one way or the other, the money must be paid. You can't add extra meaning to a contract because something isn't specified.
| koreatimes wrote: |
Alright, so now you stop working for the company. The real question I had planned, was, do you still get access to the car?
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Unless it's in your contract, no. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Someone coming that early would need to come on a tourist visa, as the work visa starts at a very specific time relating to your first day of work. |
That is one possible option. The work visa has an entry period, you can't be on a tourist visa during this period.
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| Severance is a 1 time deal going. How is this argument valid? |
No it's not, I used to think the same. After one year, your severance continues to grow. Which argument are you asking validity on?
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| It was an analogy, because it was drawing a comparison. |
If I said cheetahs are faster than cats, that's an analogy? It's a comparison. I was comparing the cost of airfare with salary. I did not say, "Airfare is like working half a month."
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| Its a bad estimation, since schools factor in incoming and outgoing airfares into their expenses, but not a second severance. |
They often have re-signing clauses where both parties give like a 60 day notice. If they didn't factor in a second severance, then they weren't planning on paying severance at least after a year. As I stated before, severance continues to grow into a second year.
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| Also a very bad analogy, as the school is expecting to pay for 1 flight, but not two. |
Right, 1 flight. You're getting it now.
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| The airfare expense is planned into the budget. |
Whether that is a good practice or not has no bearing on this. That is for the school to decide.
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| It was in the contract that the teacher signed before he came here. |
What they signed was not a projection of any following year. It only addressed that year. The employer would not have agreed to a return flight if it was not needed, just like they wouldn't pay subway expenses if the school was in Andong. There is no subway (as far as I know) there. Again, use common sense. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Intent is not factored into this definition. |
Degrees of manslaughter are used based on intent. Intent is used to administer justice. If someone is careless and there was no intent, their crime is not as punitive/harsh.
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| Therefore, the definition of "return ticket", in terms of Korean schools, can include travel out of the country. |
I am not saying it can't. Your example shows that if an employee wants the same, they should have those clauses added.
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| they are owned by the company and can be rescinded at any time. |
Who owns the plane ticket then? Why can't they rescind that? You brought up a good word, rescind.
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| Since it doesn't say one way or the other, the money must be paid. |
Where do you get that logic? Since the contract doesn't say you should or shouldn't become a millionaire, the money must be paid.
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| You can't add extra meaning to a contract because something isn't specified. |
It would be adding extra meaning to say you are staying a second year, but you should still get the money, when in fact the contract by itself ONLY pertained to one year. The return flight was ONLY referred to in scope of that one year, not a subsequent year. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Severance is a 1 time deal going. How is this argument valid? |
No it's not, I used to think the same. After one year, your severance continues to grow. Which argument are you asking validity on?
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Growing severance? I get a set severance every year.
You said that if the airfare was built into the monthly pay, he should get it, but if its a separate one-time payment, that it's somehow different. I don't see the validity of that argument.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| It was an analogy, because it was drawing a comparison. |
If I said cheetahs are faster than cats, that's an analogy? It's a comparison. I was comparing the cost of airfare with salary. I did not say, "Airfare is like working half a month."
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But you didn't say that. You compared the OP asking for airfare in cash to someone asking for a second severance. Certainly sounds like: "a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based"
Is it not?
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Its a bad estimation, since schools factor in incoming and outgoing airfares into their expenses, but not a second severance. |
They often have re-signing clauses where both parties give like a 60 day notice. If they didn't factor in a second severance, then they weren't planning on paying severance at least after a year. As I stated before, severance continues to grow into a second year.
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| Also a very bad analogy, as the school is expecting to pay for 1 flight, but not two. |
Right, 1 flight. You're getting it now.
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So you DO think the school should pay his outgoing flight? Why are we even arguing.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| The airfare expense is planned into the budget. |
Whether that is a good practice or not has no bearing on this. That is for the school to decide.
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It does if you're comparing asking for airfare to asking for a magical second severance. The first one should be expected by the school financially. The second one is just silly.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| It was in the contract that the teacher signed before he came here. |
What they signed was not a projection of any following year. It only addressed that year. The employer would not have agreed to a return flight if it was not needed, just like they wouldn't pay subway expenses if the school was in Andong. There is no subway (as far as I know) there. Again, use common sense. |
Again, contracts are not based on what if's. They're based on concrete language in the document. Common sense says follow the wording of the contract. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| A return ticket is CLEARLY indicative of someone not staying at a hotel or visiting tourist spots. It is more associated with someone's home where they will LIVE, WORK, and SLEEP for a lengthy period of time. |
How about if I have a month during which I am unemployed in Korea and, as a result, have no where to live? If I had a month between jobs, I would be returning to my parents home to live and sleep for a month, as otherwise I would have no roof over my head. At what point does it become a lengthy period of time? |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Growing severance? I get a set severance every year. |
After one year, you can leave at the 6 month mark and get 6/12 of your salary. It's prorated. So, you would get 1.5 of your salary (1 for the first year and 1/2 for the second year.) That's what I meant by growing.
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| You said that if the airfare was built into the monthly pay |
You didn't read that correctly. What I said was monthly salary is not the same as airfare which is a one time thing to come and return.
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| You compared the OP asking for airfare in cash to someone asking for a second severance. |
12 inches = 1 foot
You can use either terminology. They are not analogies.
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| So you DO think the school should pay his outgoing flight? Why are we even arguing. |
The second school should.
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| asking for a magical second severance |
Read up on severances. You can get more than one month salary if you go past a year.
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| The second one is just silly. |
The second one, if completed after 2 years, is the teacher's. It's the law. Now, I am on the teacher's side. I am not saying any of this to side with the teacher or school. I am saying things as how they pertain to justice. If it goes the teacher's way, great. If it goes the school's way, boo hoo.
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| Common sense says follow the wording of the contract. |
Common sense says follow the intent of the wording of the contract. You can't write every permutation into the contract. What you do is put the most common and sensible thing that teachers would expect. 1 year, come, go, BYE BYE.
If additional things are added, like staying in the country, then you address them when they become an issue.
Here's an example. The contract might say you have to work 6 months or else you pay back airfare coming to Korea. Well, what if the school goes out of business in the 4th month? If you only go by the wording of the contract, then you have to pay back the airfare.
Using common sense and looking at the intent, you shouldn't have to follow this clause. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| A return ticket is CLEARLY indicative of someone not staying at a hotel or visiting tourist spots. It is more associated with someone's home where they will LIVE, WORK, and SLEEP for a lengthy period of time. |
How about if I have a month during which I am unemployed in Korea and, as a result, have no where to live? If I had a month between jobs, I would be returning to my parents home to live and sleep for a month, as otherwise I would have no roof over my head. At what point does it become a lengthy period of time? |
Then I would return home. I would not sign a new contract with a second school. In that case, collect your airfare. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Growing severance? I get a set severance every year. |
After one year, you can leave at the 6 month mark and get 6/12 of your salary. It's prorated. So, you would get 1.5 of your salary (1 for the first year and 1/2 for the second year.) That's what I meant by growing.
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| You said that if the airfare was built into the monthly pay |
You didn't read that correctly. What I said was monthly salary is not the same as airfare which is a one time thing to come and return.
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Only by your definition.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| You compared the OP asking for airfare in cash to someone asking for a second severance. |
12 inches = 1 foot
You can use either terminology. They are not analogies.
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And that's not what you said either. You used two similar situations as a basis for comparison. That's an analogy.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| So you DO think the school should pay his outgoing flight? Why are we even arguing. |
The second school should.
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Even if it's not in the contract?
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| asking for a magical second severance |
Read up on severances. You can get more than one month salary if you go past a year.
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| The second one is just silly. |
The second one, if completed after 2 years, is the teacher's. It's the law. Now, I am on the teacher's side. I am not saying any of this to side with the teacher or school. I am saying things as how they pertain to justice. If it goes the teacher's way, great. If it goes the school's way, boo hoo.
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Please link me this law. I would love to get more than 2 month's salary for 2 years of teaching. I got 1 month's pay last year and I'm getting 1 month's pay this year. Apparently that's not enough?
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Common sense says follow the wording of the contract. |
Common sense says follow the intent of the wording of the contract. You can't write every permutation into the contract. What you do is put the most common and sensible thing that teachers would expect. 1 year, come, go, BYE BYE.
If additional things are added, like staying in the country, then you address them when they become an issue.
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Common sense says draft a contract without obvious loopholes, not break it when it becomes advantageous.
| koreatimes wrote: |
Here's an example. The contract might say you have to work 6 months or else you pay back airfare coming to Korea. Well, what if the school goes out of business in the 4th month? If you only go by the wording of the contract, then you have to pay back the airfare.
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The wording for flight reimbursement in contracts I've seen is related to termination. There are also some legal protections for employees of bankrupt businesses.
| koreatimes wrote: |
Using common sense and looking at the intent, you shouldn't have to follow this clause. |
You should follow the clause because it was the agreed upon wording. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Even if it's not in the contract? |
That's why I said should.
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| Please link me this law. I would love to get more than 2 month's salary for 2 years of teaching. I got 1 month's pay last year and I'm getting 1 month's pay this year. Apparently that's not enough? |
That is 2 months. 1 month your first year, and 1 month at the end of the second year. It isn't more than 2 months, but if you leave between 1 and 2 years, you get prorated severance. You don't lose that money like you would the first year. It "grows".
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| Common sense says draft a contract without obvious loopholes, not break it when it becomes advantageous. |
Teachers can do the same thing. If the clause says you don't have to pay back airfare to Korea after 6 months, wait 6 months. There are cards to be played on both sides.
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| There are also some legal protections for employees of bankrupt businesses. |
Good, so you ARE accepting rules outside the contract. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| What difference does it make if you go home now or later? |
I am hired on a montly salary. If any employer in this situation asks me for an hourly rate besides being related to overtime, I refuse to give a figure or report any figure. A monthly salary at 2,000,000 should be just that. If I worked only 2 weeks, and it was understood it would be prorated, then I accept that.
However, at no time have I taken a day's pay in China or Korea. I would never agree to this. However, transportation and commuting fees are not extra income. Chances are, schools won't care if you walked to school instead of using money they gave. It simply won't be accounted for. A higher "ticket" item, like airfare is a completely different story. That's about half your monthly salary, whereas bus fare is only 900 (when I was there).
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You are making this up. The air-fare was explicitly stated in the contract and the teacher fulfilled his obligations according to that contract.
Anything he does after the contract is none of the school's business.
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| The OP did say he will be going home, just not right now |
If he doesn't have to sign a new contract and submit it to the immigration office, then I would support this. In that case, he wouldn't have a second employer legally.
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Why would that make any difference? The second employer didn't agree to pay his air-fare, the first one did. Your whole argument is illogical.
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| He's only asking for what was agreed upon in the contract. |
The agreement is only based on a 1 year plan. You come to Korea, you teach, you go home. It doesn't account for you coming to Korea, leaving, re-entering for another year (with a new school), etc...
^_*
Exactly, so what he does after the finish of the contract is none of the school's business. They agreed to pay his air-fare, they should pay it.
Why aren't you arguing for collecting pension then? You seem to be ok with waiting for pension. The airfare home should be looked at as the same thing. The intent is for you to get airfare to Korea, and then airfare home. 1 + 1 = 2, not 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. If you are going to do that, then why don't you argue for 1 trip to Korea + 1 trip home from the first school + 1 trip back from the second school + 1 trip home = 4 while not leaving Korea altogether? It will be like a second severance.
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What are you on about here? The question was asked about air-fare, nothing else. You are making no sense.
I think if you asked any employer for a second severance you would be looked at as crazy and greedy. |
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He's not asking for a second severance, a second air-fare or anything outside of what was already agreed to in the contract. Again, you need to think about what you write a bit more. Your are not making sense. |
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