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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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 Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| kids tend to expect more "mothering" from KTs (treats, praise, concern). |
Teachers have been forced to take on this role because of the amount of time korean kids spend away from home.
I suppose one day koreans will simply give birth and hand the infant directly to a hogwon owner. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I've witnessed kids openly swearing at a Korean teacher. I have witnessed students insulting the Korean teacher in Korean. I have walked past classes where the kids inside are going wild while the Korean teacher is unable to control them.
Do you really think they sit up straight and fly right in the Korean teacher's class?
You know, maybe if you actually ate lunch with the teachers and talked to them and gained their trust you might be privy to the gossip and hear the horror stories. You'll hear how parents support their child's wild behavior and how the administration blames the teacher. You'll hear about defiant students and "how far standards have fallen".
No, its not because you are foreign. |
Boy you had to take the offense toward the end there, didn't you? Lighten up; I asked a pretty fair question that didn't automatically assume Korean kids were all little devils.
Some observations I have about KT/FT differences:
-kids are accustomed to teacher-centered, lecture oriented classes that KTs more typically do
-kids respond to KT scolding a bit more seriously due to a) language (KT can switch to fluent Korean if needed) and b) communication with parents
-kids tend to be a bit more "observational" about FT appearances (petting arm hair, marveling at eye colors)
-some kids will try to sneak in some unkind words, to their peers or sometimes a teacher, in Korean with an FT more often than KT
-kids tend to expect more fun time/games from FT classes
-kids tend to expect more "mothering" from KTs (treats, praise, concern)
I'm speaking mostly about elementary aged students.
So steelrails, can you leave your baggage out of it for once? I eat with my coworkers and I speak a bit of Korean. |
I agree with points 1&2. But, those are things that an NET is capable of doing (somewhat) as well.
As for
Observing about appearance- Not at all- for every "eye color" there is a "hair style" or "skin condition"
Sneaking unkind words- Witnessed it plenty in regards to Korean teachers.
"Fun Times"- The kids in the KT's after school English class harass them for "game time" just as much as the NETs
Mothering- The hope for candy is just as common with KTs as NETs. If the NET doesn't hand out candy then the KT that does will get harassed for it. If the KT doesn't hand out candy and the NET does, then the NET will get harassed for it.
As I've said, the KTs at my school have dealt with just as much harassment (more actually, because I don't stand for it) and have been reduced to tears. It all comes down to classroom management. Maybe, just maybe, something certain NETs do is not conducive to good classroom management, just as many of the behaviors that KTs engage in that make us roll our eyes are not conducive to classroom management.
Why is it so hard to accept that we ourselves may to be blame for the problems? (Not NETs as a group, but in the individual sense)
Ever hear of Angry Black (Minority) Man Syndrome back home?
In the case of Asians, you get Asian people who blame the media and workplace politics (they dump extra work on me because I'm Asian and they think I'll just do it) to explain all their failures. But you look out at other minorities who are living successful lives and you wonder if it is really about them being a minority or is it something they themselves are doing.
Now sorry Asian dude back home, maybe, just maybe, if you showed some backbone and were like "No, I ain't doing your extra work" that they wouldn't dump the data entry crap on you. No, its not because of "Anti-Asian media image" back home that you can't get a date, its because you are a socially awkward retard.
If some NETs are successful here, regardless of race, doesn't that indicate that maybe there is more to the equation than "because I am foreign"?
I get it though- the last thing Koreans want to do when confronted about their bad behavior is to look in the mirror. I think almost all of us here agree with that.
Well, do you think that that is equally possible with some in the NET community as well? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Now sorry Asian dude back home, maybe, just maybe, if you showed some backbone and were like "No, I ain't doing your extra work" that they wouldn't dump the data entry crap on you. No, its not because of "Anti-Asian media image" back home that you can't get a date, its because you are a socially awkward retard. |
This one strikes particularly close to home for me. One of my (formerly) good friends from high school was adopted Korean, as was her brother. Her brother displayed no interest in Asian girls, and just wanted to date white girls. He was one of those guys who could never get a date. Now, her view was that it was strictly because he was Asian (and I'm sure it played a part). She failed to take into account the fact that he had full blown OCD or that he couldn't finish college or hold a job for more than a year (when their dad was an MD and their mom had a masters in public health). Yeah, I'm sure the only reason he couldn't get a date was because he was Asian... |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Why is it so hard to accept that we ourselves may to be blame for the problems? |
Certainly, to a degree. Just as cultural issues and attitudes toward certain minority demographics can be at play, too. And I don't even think all of the differences are problems; sometimes merely differences. There's also public/private and socioeconomic levels that can affect what happens in classrooms. I just don't think it's mutually exclusive or entirely lopsided, as you strongly hint at with your diatribe about Angry Black Minority Guy angry Blames Anti-Asian Image Asian Dude.
Let me just put it this way: would you deny that there are any differences, however slight or inconsequential, between how children tend to react to male versus female teachers? Of course experienced teachers with a knack for classroom management and the right group of kids can usually mold a classroom to their liking, but that doesn't invalidate the broader picture.
Look man, I know there's a vocal anti-Korea element on Dave's, but launching into these kind of mental-gymnastics equivocations followed by rants about the Nameless, Faceless, Korea-Hating Party-Boy Dave's FT that you seem to regularly conjure isn't always necessary. Especially in my case, as in my first post I just expressed a little shock at some of the behavior I've seen due mainly to the fact that my little guys and girls are affluent kids in a major 교육열 neighborhood famous for it's obsessive mothers, and even expressed my sympathy for their kind of captive, pent-up childhoods. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a question - how many of you have taken over a "horrible class", only to make it half decent?
I mean, I've had fellow teachers in the past say "that class is full of little *&^%$", and then I go in, lay down the order, and it seems to work out just fine. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Here's a question - how many of you have taken over a "horrible class", only to make it half decent?
I mean, I've had fellow teachers in the past say "that class is full of little *&^%$", and then I go in, lay down the order, and it seems to work out just fine. |
I have. Generally it's been teachers who were either newbs or lacked any semblance of a teacher's voice who have had the problems. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Why is it so hard to accept that we ourselves may to be blame for the problems? |
Certainly, to a degree. Just as cultural issues and attitudes toward certain minority demographics can be at play, too. And I don't even think all of the differences are problems; sometimes merely differences. There's also public/private and socioeconomic levels that can affect what happens in classrooms. I just don't think it's mutually exclusive or entirely lopsided, as you strongly hint at with your diatribe about Angry Black Minority Guy angry Blames Anti-Asian Image Asian Dude.
Let me just put it this way: would you deny that there are any differences, however slight or inconsequential, between how children tend to react to male versus female teachers? Of course experienced teachers with a knack for classroom management and the right group of kids can usually mold a classroom to their liking, but that doesn't invalidate the broader picture.
Look man, I know there's a vocal anti-Korea element on Dave's, but launching into these kind of mental-gymnastics equivocations followed by rants about the Nameless, Faceless, Korea-Hating Party-Boy Dave's FT that you seem to regularly conjure isn't always necessary. Especially in my case, as in my first post I just expressed a little shock at some of the behavior I've seen due mainly to the fact that my little guys and girls are affluent kids in a major 교육열 neighborhood famous for it's obsessive mothers, and even expressed my sympathy for their kind of captive, pent-up childhoods. |
Well back when we had Darcy and Floating World, they were being hardliners about the "because we're foreign" thing. So the snarkiness crept in to my posts. They were unwilling to admit any other factor.
As you are a person who can clearly see the multitude of factors that impact classroom behavior, I'll agree that some kids in some classrooms may deliberately target foreigners.
I will say that any foreigner with good classroom management skills should be able to at least achieve partial success or maybe, stable chaos.
However there is probably some demon class out there that is uncontrollable and whoever is stuck with them I feel sorry for. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I don't think a single person on this thread has done anything of the kind. We all know there are differences in culture and upbringing. What we are saying is that in just about any country some children will try to 'take the mickey' out of the teacher. That's been a constant since the days of Plato and likely before. |
OK, while you just said that there are differences, and then you told me how it's all the same.
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I never did any such thing. I mentioned ONE and ONE "constant" only.
Seriously what are you on about?
As for differences...see Mr.gadfly's post. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Just as I thought I was out...
They pull me back in...
| Quote: |
| Well back when we had Darcy and Floating World, they were being hardliners about the "because we're foreign" thing. So the snarkiness crept in to my posts. They were unwilling to admit any other factor. |
1. I was talking about outside of the classroom as well as inside it.
2. If you think a group of kids following you down the street shouting stuff like 'hey WAYGOOKIN are you claydgee man!' and other slurs, ignored by Korean adults and parents for minutes on end has nothing to do with being a foriegner, you need therapy, which I suspect you do anyway due to your deep seated issues regarding your own experiences and issues to do with race and your pathological inability to admit things such as that following a foriegner down the street and shouting insults hs everything to do with him being a foriegner and is not something they would dream of doing to a Korean adult man. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
Just as I thought I was out...
They pull me back in...
| Quote: |
| Well back when we had Darcy and Floating World, they were being hardliners about the "because we're foreign" thing. So the snarkiness crept in to my posts. They were unwilling to admit any other factor. |
1. I was talking about outside of the classroom as well as inside it.
2. If you think a group of kids following you down the street shouting stuff like 'hey WAYGOOKIN are you claydgee man!' and other slurs, ignored by Korean adults and parents for minutes on end has nothing to do with being a foriegner, you need therapy, which I suspect you do anyway due to your deep seated issues regarding your own experiences and issues to do with race and your pathological inability to admit things such as that following a foriegner down the street and shouting insults hs everything to do with him being a foriegner and is not something they would dream of doing to a Korean adult man. |
If you ALLOW a group of kids to do that to you for minutes on end...well words fail me. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
Just as I thought I was out...
They pull me back in...
| Quote: |
| Well back when we had Darcy and Floating World, they were being hardliners about the "because we're foreign" thing. So the snarkiness crept in to my posts. They were unwilling to admit any other factor. |
1. I was talking about outside of the classroom as well as inside it.
2. If you think a group of kids following you down the street shouting stuff like 'hey WAYGOOKIN are you claydgee man!' and other slurs, ignored by Korean adults and parents for minutes on end has nothing to do with being a foriegner, you need therapy, which I suspect you do anyway due to your deep seated issues regarding your own experiences and issues to do with race and your pathological inability to admit things such as that following a foriegner down the street and shouting insults hs everything to do with him being a foriegner and is not something they would dream of doing to a Korean adult man. |
If you ALLOW a group of kids to do that to you for minutes on end...well words fail me. |
Oh, I don't anymore. But back in the day I tried answering their questions, trying to win them over. This resulted in hysterical laughter and mocking what I said in silly voices.
I tried speaking to them in Korean sentences I'd asked my co-workers to teach me to try and win them over - same results.
Now I just turn round with an angry face and mencaing posture and shout "GO AWAY.'
They still laugh and collapse in fits of giggles sometimes but most times they soon get the message and run off.
But why do you reply to my post on this issue with a judgement about me rather than admitting that SR is incorrect and the kids behaviour in that instance DOES HAVE TO BE WITH BEING A FORIEGNER? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
Just as I thought I was out...
They pull me back in...
| Quote: |
| Well back when we had Darcy and Floating World, they were being hardliners about the "because we're foreign" thing. So the snarkiness crept in to my posts. They were unwilling to admit any other factor. |
1. I was talking about outside of the classroom as well as inside it.
2. If you think a group of kids following you down the street shouting stuff like 'hey WAYGOOKIN are you claydgee man!' and other slurs, ignored by Korean adults and parents for minutes on end has nothing to do with being a foriegner, you need therapy, which I suspect you do anyway due to your deep seated issues regarding your own experiences and issues to do with race and your pathological inability to admit things such as that following a foriegner down the street and shouting insults hs everything to do with him being a foriegner and is not something they would dream of doing to a Korean adult man. |
If you ALLOW a group of kids to do that to you for minutes on end...well words fail me. |
Oh, I don't anymore. But back in the day I tried answering their questions, trying to win them over. This resulted in hysterical laughter and mocking what I said in silly voices.
I tried speaking to them in Korean sentences I'd asked my co-workers to teach me to try and win them over - same results.
Now I just turn round with an angry face and mencaing posture and shout "GO AWAY.'
They still laugh and collapse in fits of giggles sometimes but most times they soon get the message and run off.
But why do you reply to my post on this issue with a judgement about me rather than admitting that SR is incorrect and the kids behaviour in that instance DOES HAVE TO BE WITH BEING A FORIEGNER? |
I'm sorry, the discussion was about in the classroom, not on the street. But the street stuff does add to the discussion...
As I said, kids acting up in the classroom is not necessarily about you being a foreigner.
Do you seriously believe that Korean kids never act up in Korean teacher's classes? Do you seriously believe that Korean students have never sworn at or insulted a Korean teacher?
Do you believe that Korean kids on the street have never taunted or mocked a Korean person?
Do you believe that in all schools, such behavior is supported?
Do you believe all foreigners provoke the same reactions?
Do you believe that there is any possibility that it is the actions and mannerisms of the NET that may lead to such behavior?
Certainly racism is a possibility, as has consistently been acknowledged. However the absolute claims thrown out here- "It only happens to foreigners. It happens constantly every day, etc." Are too extreme and far-fetched to be taken seriously.
And sorry, but in the classroom it is not the job of parents to instill discipline. It is the job of the teacher.
Now in your case they mocked you because you were foreign. However they do not engage in mocking behavior only for foreigners.
Bullies and punks don't usually target people simply on the basis of race. They may target someone, sometime because of race, but they'll also freely target people of the same race as them.
There are other explanations, deeper causes, and examples beyond your experiences. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Bullies and punks don't usually target people simply on the basis of race. They may target someone, sometime because of race, but they'll also freely target people of the same race as them. |
Bullies usually pick on someone they percieve as weak or easy targets. Foreigners are easy targets. Therefore foreigners are more likely to suffer abuse than natives. It's a common trait throughout the world. Blame the foreigner for all of societies ills. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
[
But why do you reply to my post on this issue with a judgement about me rather than admitting that SR is incorrect and the kids behaviour in that instance DOES HAVE TO BE WITH BEING A FORIEGNER? |
Well first of all how is that a judgement? I was using your own words. And that was a question. I did say "IF"? Because I simply couldn't see a grown rational adult tolerating the below kind of scenario.
| Quote: |
| .."a group of kids following you down the street shouting stuff like 'Hey WAYGOOKIN are you claydgee man!' and other slurs, ignored by Korean adults and parents for minutes on end..." |
(bolding mine)
As for admitting that SR is incorrect...well no. I have seen a group of kids taunt a street beggar. He was in his sixties and obviously 'not all there' if you know what I mean. They were running around him and throwing ramyon at him and he just stood there with a dazed smile on his face. I chased them off and escorted him up the street to get away from there. And this was a KOREAN ADULT. So yes, they probably see you on the same level...unable to speak the language properly and therefore unable to complain...I AM NOT CALLING YOU A STREET BEGGAR, BTW just so you know. |
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