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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:22 am Post subject: |
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When I was born there were 2,500,000,000 people living. Now there are 7,000,000,000. When I was born, there were 150,697,361 in the US; now there are 300,000,000 + a Sweden or the Netherlands.
While Kuros is right about the potential intellectual and cultural advances, Maslow teaches us that people have to have food and safety (etc) before they can self-actualize. Tolstoy did not spend his days digging through the garbage dumps of Moscow for food. He was physically comfortable enough to be able to think and write.
Optimism is better than pessimism. Blind optimism is stupid and irresponsible. Keep in mind there was a 5,000 year lag between the agricultural revolution and the green revolution. There were a heck of a lot of people who starved to death in the interval.
At some point, the capitalist model of produce, produce, produce, sell, sell, sell, buy, buy, buy and consume, consume, consume is going to be challenged by some model where materialistic desires are replaced by...I don't know, maybe cultural aspects of life?...after the basic necessities are met...some kind of much less materialistic orientation where quality of life is not measured by how many toys you die with. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Has it? I thought the earth has been through some far more extreme stuff. |
When? When has there been so many catastrophic natural events in such a short period of time. I'm not claiming there hasn't been, but the events in America, Japan, Pakistan, Thailand, Australia, etc. etc. happening in such a short time span seems significant. |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| At some point, the capitalist model of produce, produce, produce, sell, sell, sell, buy, buy, buy and consume, consume, consume is going to be challenged by some model where materialistic desires are replaced by...I don't know, maybe cultural aspects of life?...after the basic necessities are met...some kind of much less materialistic orientation where quality of life is not measured by how many toys you die with. |
Thats already happened in a lot of the west hasn't it?
Certainly in the UK for example. People sneer at wealth, they wouldn't work saturdays for any money. They're far more interested in finding meaning, fun and identity in their lives.
This capitalist hangover still hasn't arrived in Korea yet... but its definitely on the way. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: ... |
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| At some point, the capitalist model of produce, produce, produce, sell, sell, sell, buy, buy, buy and consume, consume, consume is going to be challenged by some model where materialistic desires are replaced by...I don't know, maybe cultural aspects of life?...after the basic necessities are met...some kind of much less materialistic orientation where quality of life is not measured by how many toys you die with. |
I'm happy to see this.
As the saying goes, there are thousands hacking at the branches but not at the root.
Money is the root.
Whether you want to start with Egypt (or ancient China), we have progressively distributed wealth broader.
Up to the 1800s, we see wealth being taken from a small group and spread further.
As of the 20th century, we have a seemingly ingenious system wherein, in exchange for a vote, you deserve your place in society.
A place in society where we have soooo much money but cannot afford to pay for the starving.
Money, a man-made construct, prohibits us from allowing humans to live with dignity.
If money is what limits us, then MONEY is the problem.
Shall we not steal from the rich? The easiest way is if they aren't the rich.
IF THE RICH CAN'T AFFORD TO HELP THE POOR, THEN HOW CAN YOU AFFORD TO BE RICH? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Scientists slow aging process but 7 billion of us alread |
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| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| 7 billion human lives! Imagine the scientific potential! Imagine the artistic and cultural potential! We should rejoice that there are so many people. |
Imagine the mass starvation if we have a couple of years of severe drought in one of the world's main agricultural areas! |
So your solution to disaster prevention would be birth control . . . rather than investment in insurance and stockpiles?
I swear, the anti-life streak in the environmentalist movement may be the densest of all sentiments on the Left. Isn't the Left supposed to have some sort of faith in science and progress? Or at least some knowledge of history? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Money, a man-made construct, prohibits us from allowing humans to live with dignity.
If money is what limits us, then MONEY is the problem. |
I don't want to completely derail the thread...
But money in its purest form (not inflationary fiat currency) is just a way to store/exchange/transport value. If you get rid of the system of voluntary exchange which currently uses money, it would likely be replaced by a system of government-enforced exchange which would still use money. |
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johnnyenglishteacher2
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists slow aging process but 7 billion of us alread |
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| Kuros wrote: |
So your solution to disaster prevention would be birth control . . . rather than investment in insurance and stockpiles?
I swear, the anti-life streak in the environmentalist movement may be the densest of all sentiments on the Left. Isn't the Left supposed to have some sort of faith in science and progress? Or at least some knowledge of history? |
What, so I'm anti-life now, because I realise that there are limits to how large the human race can get/how much we can consume? You aren't a scientist are you? If you followed scientific research closely, you'd see that a lot of scientists from different disciplines are very, very concerned about future food security.
How much food do you want to stockpile? And how do you propose that we stockpile perishables? We can't keep freezers with fruit and vegetables for 50 million people. Humans can't survive on grain alone.
What about freshwater supplies? Desalination is an (expensive) option for those on the coast, but what about those living 500 miles inland?
Believing that over-population can cause problems isn't anti-progress or anti-science at all, just saying "I believe we can fix anything with technology" is not the same thing as being pro-progress, and is not a view shared by most people who work in science or engineering - quite the contrary, we are very, very aware of the limitations of our fields. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists slow aging process but 7 billion of us alread |
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| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
So your solution to disaster prevention would be birth control . . . rather than investment in insurance and stockpiles?
I swear, the anti-life streak in the environmentalist movement may be the densest of all sentiments on the Left. Isn't the Left supposed to have some sort of faith in science and progress? Or at least some knowledge of history? |
What, so I'm anti-life now, because I realise that there are limits to how large the human race can get/how much we can consume? You aren't a scientist are you? If you followed scientific research closely, you'd see that a lot of scientists from different disciplines are very, very concerned about future food security.
How much food do you want to stockpile? And how do you propose that we stockpile perishables? We can't keep freezers with fruit and vegetables for 50 million people. Humans can't survive on grain alone.
What about freshwater supplies? Desalination is an (expensive) option for those on the coast, but what about those living 500 miles inland?
Believing that over-population can cause problems isn't anti-progress or anti-science at all, just saying "I believe we can fix anything with technology" is not the same thing as being pro-progress, and is not a view shared by most people who work in science or engineering - quite the contrary, we are very, very aware of the limitations of our fields. |
My chosen profession is irrelevant here.
But I have done some research on this issue. Climate Engineering and Technology are considered the most promising avenues, and actually cutting carbon and "green energy" are considered the least cost-effective. (Moderately effective: planning for adaptation, tech exchanges, forestry, and cutting black carbon/methane). And yes, I'm taking my cues from consortiums of economists AND climatologists, because the solutions are as much about maximizing efficiency as they are about political possibility.
Specifically, the five most promising avenues for climate damage mitigation are:
* Marine Cloud Whitening Research
* Energy R&D
* Stratospheric Aerosol Reduction Research
* Carbon Storage Research
* Research into Air Capture
Take it away, Bjorn Lomborg |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dupont and Monsanto are going to take over control of the weather? That can't possibly go wrong, can it? |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Dupont and Monsanto are going to take over control of the weather? That can't possibly go wrong, can it? |
If results like Monsanto's reducing the ammount of variety and diversity in the produce we eat is anything to go by... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Dupont and Monsanto are going to take over control of the weather? That can't possibly go wrong, can it? |
I prefer your ridiculous and hyperbolic picture to the alternative: an American one-child policy. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists slow aging process but 7 billion of us alread |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| 7 billion human lives! Imagine the scientific potential! Imagine the artistic and cultural potential! We should rejoice that there are so many people. |
Imagine the mass starvation if we have a couple of years of severe drought in one of the world's main agricultural areas! |
So your solution to disaster prevention would be birth control . . . rather than investment in insurance and stockpiles?
I swear, the anti-life streak in the environmentalist movement may be the densest of all sentiments on the Left. Isn't the Left supposed to have some sort of faith in science and progress? Or at least some knowledge of history? |
What do you mean by birth control? I support greater acsess to, and education about, birth control and condoms in the third world, as well as in the developed worlds schools. I do think that a reduced birthrate in some places would be a good thing, dependng on the situation. Also increased condoms would help slow the spread of disease. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I wonder what percentage of this growth is in developing nations as opposed to developed nations. I know in several developed places the birthrate is below replacement. WIth enviromental degradation as bad as it already is, and resources being used a faster pace, I hope that technology can keep pace. |
environmental degradation?
Where? |
Melting ice caps, Japan, Pakistan, Thailand, etc. etc. etc. extreme weather has been incurring a greater rate in recent history than any other time before.
Not to mention that the countries with big pop. density like China and India are anything but clean. Air quality, etc. |
To my knowledge, cities have become cleaner then ever before, certainly compared to the Industrialization era. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists slow aging process but 7 billion of us alread |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| johnnyenglishteacher2 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| 7 billion human lives! Imagine the scientific potential! Imagine the artistic and cultural potential! We should rejoice that there are so many people. |
Imagine the mass starvation if we have a couple of years of severe drought in one of the world's main agricultural areas! |
So your solution to disaster prevention would be birth control . . . rather than investment in insurance and stockpiles?
I swear, the anti-life streak in the environmentalist movement may be the densest of all sentiments on the Left. Isn't the Left supposed to have some sort of faith in science and progress? Or at least some knowledge of history? |
Not all lefty's think like that. I for one agreed with Kuros that environmentalist and anti-life sentiment is ridiculous. One thing that living in Asia has taught me is that in the west there is under population especially in US, Canada and France.
Last edited by No_hite_pls on Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I wonder what percentage of this growth is in developing nations as opposed to developed nations. I know in several developed places the birthrate is below replacement. WIth enviromental degradation as bad as it already is, and resources being used a faster pace, I hope that technology can keep pace. |
environmental degradation?
Where? |
Melting ice caps, Japan, Pakistan, Thailand, etc. etc. etc. extreme weather has been incurring a greater rate in recent history than any other time before.
Not to mention that the countries with big pop. density like China and India are anything but clean. Air quality, etc. |
To my knowledge, cities have become cleaner then ever before, certainly compared to the Industrialization era. |
Which cities and what do you mean by cleaner? India and China certianly are not cleaner. Developed countries, maybe. Third World countires are where the growth is largely generated though. Also these developing countries are rapidly developing a need for more resources as they develope and get richer. |
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