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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: Grammar Question about "from which" |
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The castle rests above the bank of the river, _______ it commands a
spectacular view.
I would complete that sentence with "from where" but I've been asked
why "from which" wouldn't work. Dictionaries and online sources seem to say that "from which" and "from where" are synonyms. I can't find anything
about this in the Micheal Swan resources that I have. Could someone help
with this one, please?
Thank you. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| It could refer to the river as a place or thing. It is also used for abstract ideas. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Then both are fine? I would only have used "from where" in the original sentence. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| raewon wrote: |
| Then both are fine? I would only have used "from where" in the original sentence. |
I prefer "from where" also, but as long as you use "from" with "which", I think it's fine. If you say "which" alone, it is debatable. Either it is ambiguous at best or wrong. |
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Chimie
Joined: 05 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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"From where" actually sounds quite awful to my ears. I would say "from which" or "Where."
"From which" referring to the river, and "where" referring to the top of the embankment.
So by saying "from where," it seems like the POV of the speaker is the top of the embankment of the river, which doesn't make much logical sense. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I think to use "which" only, you would have to omit the "it":
"The castle rests above the bank of the river, which commands a
spectacular view."
That to me sounds strange.
Another sentence, without the omission:
"I was walking and it suddenly started to rain, which it made me all wet."
The "it" doesn't seem to fit there. |
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Chimie
Joined: 05 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
I think to use "which" only, you would have to omit the "it":
"The castle rests above the bank of the river, which commands a
spectacular view."
That to me sounds strange.
Another sentence, without the omission:
"I was walking and it suddenly started to rain, which it made me all wet."
The "it" doesn't seem to fit there. |
Because the which in the first sentence you wrote refers to the river--thus why the strange sound. As well as why 'it' doesn't make sense in the second sentence.
Think of it this way: "The castle rests above the bank of the Mississippi River, which commands a spectacular view."
The second half of the sentence works well when the subject of the sentence switches to that of the river.
Rearranging it: The castle, which commands a spectacular view, sits above the bank of the river.
Better? Not how I would write a sentence, but it's easier on the ears. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. Can anyone else confirm that "from which" is the correct answer (and not "from where") for the original sentence:
The castle rests above the bank of the river, _______ it commands a
spectacular view.
I think there must be a "simple" grammatical explanation that I'm overlooking.
Thanks. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Chimie wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
I think to use "which" only, you would have to omit the "it":
"The castle rests above the bank of the river, which commands a
spectacular view."
That to me sounds strange.
Another sentence, without the omission:
"I was walking and it suddenly started to rain, which it made me all wet."
The "it" doesn't seem to fit there. |
Because the which in the first sentence you wrote refers to the river--thus why the strange sound. As well as why 'it' doesn't make sense in the second sentence.
Think of it this way: "The castle rests above the bank of the Mississippi River, which commands a spectacular view."
The second half of the sentence works well when the subject of the sentence switches to that of the river.
Rearranging it: The castle, which commands a spectacular view, sits above the bank of the river.
Better? Not how I would write a sentence, but it's easier on the ears. |
You're just rationalizing your choice. My preference would be "from where", but that's purely subjective. It doesn't mean "from which" is wrong. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: |
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'from which' is correct.
I wouldn't use 'from where' myself but if that's how they talk in your dialect, fine. The relative pronoun 'where' contains an implied preposition, e.g. 'He entered the room where the victim had been found' = 'He entered the room in which the victim had been found'. For that reason, it seems illogical to attach another preposition to it. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| if that's how they talk in your dialect, fine. |
http://www.bartleby.com/185/42.html
I don't understand why you need to single this out as being "your dialect". I am speaking in terms of possibilities. I said it could be just as easily "from which", I am not claiming it is YOUR dialect or mine. It's like painting with red or blue, it's a subjective and arbitrary decision. There is NO source I have come across which would be a stronger authority on one or the other.
Do you have one besides trying force your personal beliefs on other people?
The castle rests above the bank of the river, from where it commands a
spectacular view.
The focus is more on the general area. ("Go up the street where you will see a sign....")
The castle rests above the bank of the river, from which it commands a
spectacular view.
I get more of an impression it's a specific area. ("When you reach the top of the mountain which has a resting spot, wait there for us.")
In that case "where has" doesn't make any sense. |
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Chimie
Joined: 05 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| if that's how they talk in your dialect, fine. |
http://www.bartleby.com/185/42.html
I don't understand why you need to single this out as being "your dialect". I am speaking in terms of possibilities. I said it could be just as easily "from which", I am not claiming it is YOUR dialect or mine. It's like painting with red or blue, it's a subjective and arbitrary decision. There is NO source I have come across which would be a stronger authority on one or the other.
Do you have one besides trying force your personal beliefs on other people?
The castle rests above the bank of the river, from where it commands a
spectacular view.
The focus is more on the general area. ("Go up the round where you will see a sign....")
The castle rests above the bank of the river, from which it commands a
spectacular view.
I get more of an impression it's a specific area. ("When you reach the top of the mountain which has a resting spot, wait there for us.")
In that case "where has" doesn't make any sense. |
You are correct in that the "which" refers to a specific place but that is because your usage of "which" is discussing occurrence rather than location. It can be assumed by your sentence that the listener will traverse multiple mountains and is intended to stop at the top of the mountain that has a resting spot, rather than the other mountains.
In the first example (The castle and river) "Which" is being used after a preposition to represent a specified antecedent. Different usage, different situation.
| Quote: |
| The castle rests above the bank of the river, from which it commands a spectacular view. |
This sentence is 100% correct. However, it does depend on context which sentence you should use. "From which" or "where"
Do you want the castle to be the theme of the sentence? Is the view from the base of the river what you're trying to explain or just that the castle commands a spectacular view. For the former, I'd use "from which" and the later, "where"
I personally don't like "from where" I would never say it, and from all that I can tell, it isn't correct. The agreement of the words just doesn't seem kosher. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder how The Cosmic Hum would explain this one? TCH's explanations are usually based on sound grammar and spot on. I'll jump to that side of the fence. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| It can be assumed by your sentence that the listener will traverse multiple mountains and is intended to stop at the top of the mountain that has a resting spot, rather than the other mountains. |
Making assumptions is subjective. I have NEVER EVER thought of multiple mountains when I refer to "top of the THE mountain". Again, you are not wrong, but you are pushing your interpretation on others.
| Quote: |
| Do you want the castle to be the theme of the sentence? Is the view from the base of the river what you're trying to explain or just that the castle commands a spectacular view. For the former, I'd use "from which" and the later, "where" |
Ok, then you don't think "where" is wrong. I was under a different impression before.
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| I personally don't like "from where" I would never say it, and from all that I can tell, it isn't correct. |
Now you are flip flopping. Before you said, "I'd use" and now you are saying "isn't correct". As you stated before, there is a point of view and it depends on reading how you want to interpret.
Here is one page where they seem to favor "from where" more than "from which". It doesn't mean it is always more correct.
http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/145722-why-where-instead.html |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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koreatimes
I stumbled across that example as well, but I think it's different from the original question/sentence in this thread. In fact, I kind of felt that it supported Chimie's logic:
| Quote: |
| So by saying "from where," it seems like the POV of the speaker is the top of the embankment of the river, which doesn't make much logical sense. |
for using "from which" in the original sentence in question.
Sure hope The Cosmic Hum steps in on this one.
Thanks for all of the replies so far. |
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