|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| I can't imagine many Korean parents are going to look at things rationally and say something like 'my 8 year old Bum Suk is probably going to work in a store when he grows up so there's no point in him going to English hagwan.' |
Which is why I said "IF" and why I stated
| Quote: |
| "The English craze in Korea is out of all proportion to the actual need". |
Not everybody needs to speak English...not even half. Most will never or only rarely use it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Urban
To bad you don't understand Human Capital Theory and multiple hurdles.
English (that is taught) is not just about English (that is spoken-or read/communicated). It is as much part of a series of hurdles to assign a students 'place',
Come on dude, when was the last time you used your log tables? By your reasoning math is not a required subject either and 'out of proportion'. Yeah, right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Old fat expat wrote: |
Urban
To bad you don't understand Human Capital Theory and multiple hurdles.
English (that is taught) is not just about English (that is spoken-or read/communicated). It is as much part of a series of hurdles to assign a students 'place',
Come on dude, when was the last time you used your log tables? By your reasoning math is not a required subject either and 'out of proportion'. Yeah, right. |
I prefer to understand reality instead of theory.
The reality is just about ANYWHERE and not just in Korea, MOST people don't NEED to learn a second language (apart of course if it is required to get a H.S or college diploma or in some cases a job). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chrisblank
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Location: Incheon
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| Old fat expat wrote: |
Urban
The reality is just about ANYWHERE and not just in Korea, MOST people don't NEED to learn a second language (apart of course if it is required to get a H.S or college diploma or in some cases a job). |
I supposed that depends on how you define "NEED", I need to breath, I need to eat, I don't need to talk.
And how you define "MOST"... what would India do if every one just spoke one language, what with over 200 languages being used. Or Europe, for that matter, with 23 official languages and over 200 spoken.
I suppose people could simple subsist on the food they grow on their land around them, seeing as trade would be pretty difficult. And advancement in terms of culture or science could be just left by the wayside, seeing as all we need is what can be learned in one language.
One of my graduate students told me that less than 40% of all "knowledge" was available in Korean, whereas almost 90% is available in English. From his point of view he was missing out on so much by just being restricted to the one language. But then he doesn't really NEED all that knowledge.
I mean really, who cares about science, (Most Nobel laureates in Physics, Chemistry, and Physiology or Medicine did not face the challenge of translating their works into another language. Many speak English as their first language and even non-native English speakers usually publish their discoveries in English) just go through life with the one language and you'll be fine, so long as it is English...(at least until Chinese becomes the lingua franca) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="chrisblank"]
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Old fat expat wrote: |
Urban
The reality is just about ANYWHERE and not just in Korea, MOST people don't NEED to learn a second language (apart of course if it is required to get a H.S or college diploma or in some cases a job). |
I supposed that depends on how you define "NEED", I need to breath, I need to eat, I don't need to talk.
And how you define "MOST"... what would India do if every one just spoke one language, what with over 200 languages being used. Or Europe, for that matter, with 23 official languages and over 200 spoken.
I suppose people could simple subsist on the food they grow on their land around them, seeing as trade would be pretty difficult. And advancement in terms of culture or science could be just left by the wayside, seeing as all we need is what can be learned in one language.
) |
Well I certainly don't define "MOST" as "ALL" or "every one". But I can see why YOU apparently do. You couldn't refute my point otherwise.
Any more creative interpretations of the English language for us? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Like I said Urban, you just don't understand.
Human Capital Theory has had a HUGE impact on your life (even though you don't understand it). The fact you have a degree is a result of this 'theory'.
Here is a 'fact' that is part of the 'theory' in Korea.
A requirement for large corporations in Korea is now an English score. I am not sure how correct you are in your assertion that employees rarely use English, but as part of the hurdle process of getting hired now, there is an English component. That is a fact. That is the 'theory' at work, i.e. reality.
Really don't feel like 'schooling' you up on this. You argue like you've spent too much time playing dungeons and dragons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Old fat expat wrote: |
Like I said Urban, you just don't understand.
Human Capital Theory has had a HUGE impact on your life (even though you don't understand it). The fact you have a degree is a result of this 'theory'.
Here is a 'fact' that is part of the 'theory' in Korea.
A requirement for large corporations in Korea is now an English score. I am not sure how correct you are in your assertion that employees rarely use English, but as part of the hurdle process of getting hired now, there is an English component. That is a fact. That is the 'theory' at work, i.e. reality.
Really don't feel like 'schooling' you up on this. You argue like you've spent too much time playing dungeons and dragons. |
Sorry never played that game.
And as I ALREADY said above I am perfectly aware that a requirement for large corporations is now an English score. I said that quite clearly on the last page. Stop trying to claim different.
| Quote: |
| A job at the big companies yes...but elsewhere? Most jobs (shop keeper, working in a store or at a bank or elsewhere don't require that much English |
Now think about it. Why would people who share the same common first language use a second common language for everyday communication? Most employees at these corporations are Korean and as such are much more likely to use Korean to communicate rather than English. And a high English score does NOT always guarantee proficiency in English at any rate. I've worked at a couple of companies and I can tell you that for a fact. I know plenty of other people who can say the same thing.
Not everybody works at these corporations and therefore not everybody needs to learn English. Does the clerk at the 7-11 need to speak English? Does the guy picking up your trash and putting it in the truck need to speak English?
In fact most Koreans don't work for large corporations...small businesses employ 2/3rds of the workforce. Small businesses tend to cater to the local clientele...who speak Korean. I said "most" and 2/3rds seems to qualify as "most".
http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=3x_DG1-F7iYC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=percentage+of+Koreans+who+work+at+large+companies&source=bl&ots=CUG6f4d9ds&sig=-6B3cl6T6908r6qPNT1OI_KJRow&hl=ko&ei=PhC6TsvlOeWJmQWKvZX6Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
In sum I understand quite clearly...you are the one who insists on misinterpreting my posts and attempting to put words in my mouth that I never said.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Urban, you are not taking in to account today's flexible workplace market where one does not any more stay in one career / idustry / profession for life.
Korean parents clearly understand this and just because their child might not need English in their first job, in the second or third or if they decide to get further education later on down the line etc.
I never did my 'Computer driver's license' at uni. It was a free programe offered to all students and would have had me up to scratch with all common programmes etc. I sometimes, when it comes to trying to collate lesson plan or evaluations etc wish to god I knew how to use excell and powerpoint better etc. But I never envisaged that I would ever need those skills.
In today's globalised and flexible marketlace, a full toolbox of all posible skillsets is an advantage and in business, if one is to do it internationally - speaking the lingua franca is a massive advantage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Floating World wrote: |
Urban, you are not taking in to account today's flexible workplace market where one does not any more stay in one career / idustry / profession for life.
Korean parents clearly understand this and just because their child might not need English in their first job, in the second or third or if they decide to get further education later on down the line etc.
I never did my 'Computer driver's license' at uni. It was a free programe offered to all students and would have had me up to scratch with all common programmes etc. I sometimes, when it comes to trying to collate lesson plan or evaluations etc wish to god I knew how to use excell and powerpoint better etc. But I never envisaged that I would ever need those skills.
In today's globalised and flexible marketlace, a full toolbox of all posible skillsets is an advantage and in business, if one is to do it internationally - speaking the lingua franca is a massive advantage. |
Oh I quite agree. However I think that you are envisioning a much more flexible Korea then the one we are living in at present. The education system needs some serious reform first.
And one more thing, it's seems rather unrealistic to expect everyone or even a majority of people to learn a second language to the point where they can speak it fluently. Maybe in some cases like Belgium or Switzerland but that's not how English is taught here.
Canada has two official languages for example yet the majority of speakers there are monolingual. In the U.S, Spanish while a minority language may become a majority language in a half century or so (according to some estimates)...how many American native speakers of English speak Spanish fluently? Not the majority certainly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Look, you seem to be stuck on the idea that 'learning English' is about 'speaking English'. Your words. And further to your thesis, because few will speak English daily, it is irrelevant for Koreans to learn English. You see, I understand your position, but your position is a one dimensional perspective on the utility of English in Korea.
I pointed out that learning English in Korea is about multiple hurdles for acquiring a good job.
I am sorry you don't understand that, or why you are a teacher here. The majority of teaching jobs are in lower level classes (elementary-middle school). Teaching English is about opportunity--opportunity that is as yet undefined for young students. The mothers and fathers (and government) have decided to provide equal opportunity for all young students because, well, who is to say which youngster will excel and which one will not.
The reality, the fact on the ground, is that English scores are what is important. Usage is secondary. That is why some claim we are not ESL teachers, rather EFL teachers.
The governments long term goal is to have a bi-lingual population. The peoples short term goal is good test scores.
Good test scores = better job opportunities = Human Capital Theory.
I don't know if Korea will achieve the governments goal, but I have lived here many years and have witnessed real change in English usage. I now often have local store clerks speak English to me.
The fact that people don't use English does not mean English has no value. Complex idea I know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Old fat expat wrote: |
(1)Look, you seem to be stuck on the idea that 'learning English' is about 'speaking English'. Your words.
(2) And further to your thesis, because few will speak English daily, it is irrelevant for Koreans to learn English. You see, I understand your position, but your position is a one dimensional perspective on the utility of English in Korea.
(3) I pointed out that learning English in Korea is about multiple hurdles for acquiring a good job.
(4) I am sorry you don't understand that, or why you are a teacher here. The majority of teaching jobs are in lower level classes (elementary-middle school). Teaching English is about opportunity--opportunity that is as yet undefined for young students. The mothers and fathers (and government) have decided to provide equal opportunity for all young students because, well, who is to say which youngster will excel and which one will not.
(5) The reality, the fact on the ground, is that English scores are what is important. Usage is secondary. That is why some claim we are not ESL teachers, rather EFL teachers.
The governments long term goal is to have a bi-lingual population. The peoples short term goal is good test scores.
(6) Good test scores = better job opportunities = Human Capital Theory.
(7 I don't know if Korea will achieve the governments goal, but I have lived here many years and have witnessed real change in English usage. I now often have local store clerks speak English to me.
( The fact that people don't use English does not mean English has no value. Complex idea I know. |
(I took the liberty of adding numbers and slightly editing your post for some clarification on my part)
1. Only that is not the idea. I am using that as an example not a thesis.
2. I never said it was irrelevant for Koreans to learn English. I said MOST don't NEED to. You really think the 40 year-old mother of two at the local 7-11 needs to learn English fluently?
3. And I understand that as well. I even said so back in this thread. Learning English well can equate to a good job. We are both on the same page.
4. Right. And of these majority of teaching jobs...how many posters have complained that the students see the foreigner's class as playtime? Foreign teachers have been coming here for more than two decades now...yet the overall level and competency of English is still quite low..although it seems somewhat better then what it used to be.
5. Again this is another point of mine. It is scores which are important not usage. Which leads us to yet another point. If usage is not important then eventually English ability will suffer.
6. Yes. And the people with the best scores will get these good opportunities...the people with lower test scores...not so much. At least that is the theory. But in practice we all know that (just like back home) it is WHO you know, not WHAT you know. Sure qualified applicants get in, but so do a number of unqualified applicants.
7. I've been here even longer (you came in 2002 right?) and I've witnessed progress in certain areas as well. But about these store clerks. Yes most can speak a few words/phrases in English. If on the other hand they can speak English fluently but are stuck in this kind of job that says something about your thesis that good English is the key. (see number six)
8. It's not a complex idea at all. Why are you positing this as so black and white. Because English is not used by most people doesn't mean it has no value...it's just not a priority for THEM. For others it may well be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bcjinseoul
Joined: 13 Jan 2010
Location: Seoul, Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So when do we get to find out this is indeed a 100% fact? Cause if it is, it's probably going to half and quarter the amount of lifers and long termers on the esl landscape. Like someone else said, it'll be mostly noobs that will do a year at some hogwon and get out, which is what Korea probably wants, anyway... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Urban wrote:
| Quote: |
Seriously if parents do wake up, they'll likely realize that learning English just isn't that important unless their children are going to be working at a job that involves speaking a lot of English daily. The English craze in Korea is out of all proportion to the actual need...every kid doesn't need to know English...not even half. Most will work within Korea, doing jobs that involve no/a little English, and speak Korean daily.
|
I will not include numbers because it is an arrogant and belittling behavior used by pedants.
I will also NOT prescribe what parents should or should not do regarding their children's education. I will however try to understand why they do those things.
Please though, reread YOUR words. Clearly you state English is only of value to those that are going to be working at a job that involves speaking a lot of English daily.
My point, which you condescended to as being 'only theory' was that English has utility in areas other than communication. OK? So how am I wrong? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Old fat expat wrote: |
| My point, which you condescended to as being 'only theory' was that English has utility in areas other than communication. OK? So how am I wrong? |
Finally we are getting somewhere. All right then list these areas and do so Korea-specifically as that is the country we are discussing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Take it somewhere else, Old fat expat. Is it really necessary for posters to completely derail a thread with nothing relevant to the OP? I suspect that most people click on this thread in order to get some new information, not to read your unrelated gibberish that you incessantly post merely for the sake of argument. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
