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Are housing deposits normal?
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Mike410



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Are housing deposits normal? Reply with quote

Just wondering if paying a 600,000 won housing security deposit for private schools is normal?

I read on EFL-Law.com that this is under deceptive practices by hagwons.

Thanks
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Are housing deposits normal? Reply with quote

Mike410 wrote:
Just wondering if paying a 600,000 won housing security deposit for private schools is normal?

I read on EFL-Law.com that this is under deceptive practices by hagwons.

Thanks



Housing deposits are legal and common although far from universal. There is nothing deceptive or malicious about them per se.

For honest schools, housing deposits give the school some protection against the significant percentage of dishonest, corrupt, incompetent, destructive and irresponsible teachers who find their way to Korea.

Many teachers will fail to pay their bills or damage their free housing and furnishings and leave their honest employer holding the bag. Some teachers who finish their contracts and get all their pay and benefits still rob their employers in this way at the end of a contract. Many of the numerous incompetent teachers who are fired also leave behind bills and damage. And runners (typically misfits, incompetents, and defective personalities) even more commonly leave behind damages and unpaid bills. For these reasons, housing deposits are quite common at private schools and standard at public schools as well.

For dishonest and corrupt schools, housing deposits become a financial tie to prevent teachers from leaving, or a chance to rip off teachers after completing their contract. This is less common than teachers cheating their schools, but it is what you want to watch out for.

The very best schools will take the risk and require no housing deposit.

Honest, high quality schools recognize that each new teacher is a different individual, and that past problems with another individual does not automatically justify greeting the new teacher with suspicion and distrust.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Are housing deposits normal? Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
Mike410 wrote:
Just wondering if paying a 600,000 won housing security deposit for private schools is normal?

I read on EFL-Law.com that this is under deceptive practices by hagwons.

Thanks



Housing deposits are legal and common although far from universal. There is nothing deceptive or malicious about them per se.

For honest schools, housing deposits give the school some protection against the significant percentage of dishonest, corrupt, incompetent, destructive and irresponsible teachers who find their way to Korea.

Many teachers will fail to pay their bills or damage their free housing and furnishings and leave their honest employer holding the bag. Some teachers who finish their contracts and get all their pay and benefits still rob their employers in this way at the end of a contract. Many of the numerous incompetent teachers who are fired also leave behind bills and damage. And runners (typically misfits, incompetents, and defective personalities) even more commonly leave behind damages and unpaid bills. For these reasons, housing deposits are quite common at private schools and standard at public schools as well.

For dishonest and corrupt schools, housing deposits become a financial tie to prevent teachers from leaving, or a chance to rip off teachers after completing their contract. This is less common than teachers cheating their schools, but it is what you want to watch out for.

The very best schools will take the risk and require no housing deposit.

Honest, high quality schools recognize that each new teacher is a different individual, and that past problems with another individual does not automatically justify greeting the new teacher with suspicion and distrust.


Bang on. Great response.

I would just say that the very best schools will also sometimes require deposits depending on the quality of accomodation they offer their teachers and thereby on the money they had to put up to get the appartment(s).

Otherwise I completely agree with your response. Well done.
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Mike410



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies. Has anyone experienced an employer not paying back the deposit even though the bills were paid, and studio kept in good order etc?

Are there Korean laws that protect tenants/employees from this potential problem?
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koreatimes



Joined: 07 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike410 wrote:
Thanks for your replies. Has anyone experienced an employer not paying back the deposit even though the bills were paid, and studio kept in good order etc?

Are there Korean laws that protect tenants/employees from this potential problem?


At 600,000 you would have to lose more money to make it worth collecting on.

As I pointed out in your contract review, you can't address only one term without looking at the whole contract collectively. In your contract it says they will pay with your last month's pay. I feel this is a good sign, and it supports what I said about losing more. Either they will pay you both, or they won't pay you either.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My school's solid and honest. We didn't have to pay housing deposits until one of the teachers peaced out of an apartment he'd furnished himself without moving any of his furniture out, at which point one of the Korean employees at the school had to go (by himself) and move all the furniture out during a school vacation.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did when I was young and green but I wouldn't sign a contract with a housing deposit now for the following two reasons:

1. From the first day you work, the school owes you money in the form of salary, they are already holding your cash;
2. The gas and electricity company will come to your apartment and do a final reading when you leave, the cost for this service is about w4,000 per company.

Provided you agree to pay the w4,000 for the people to do the final reading there is no need to hold a deposit, unless your school pays you daily, or they pay you to payday.
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koreatimes



Joined: 07 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bills are low, but you could trash the place which would incur a greater cost.

Why not take it out of the salary then? That's just how Koreans do it in Korea. They have 3 million won security deposits and higher just to give the landlord.

In China, what they do is you pay for 3, but usually 6 months rent. Then, they want a 7th as a security deposit. At the end of the 6 months, they try to do whatever they can to not give you this security deposit (making up excuses that you need to pay for heat and such, which is regulated by the government.)
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

koreatimes wrote:
The bills are low, but you could trash the place which would incur a greater cost.


Come on, how do you quietly trash a place so the neighbours won't notice and call the police.

Also following Korean culture cleaning an apartment is the job of the incoming tenant, not the departing tenant.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_fella1 wrote:
koreatimes wrote:
The bills are low, but you could trash the place which would incur a greater cost.


Come on, how do you quietly trash a place so the neighbours won't notice and call the police.

Also following Korean culture cleaning an apartment is the job of the incoming tenant, not the departing tenant.


You must be joking (bolded part)?
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's pretty easy to quietly trash a place, aside from the fact that it's unlikely anyone would call. A girl who worked at my school a few months before I got there and was fired with just cause proceeded to go outside, take trash off the street, and spread it around the apartment. She also overturned every piece of furniture in the place and generally went out of her way to destroy it.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Are housing deposits normal? Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
Mike410 wrote:
Just wondering if paying a 600,000 won housing security deposit for private schools is normal?

I read on EFL-Law.com that this is under deceptive practices by hagwons.

Thanks



Housing deposits are legal and common although far from universal. There is nothing deceptive or malicious about them per se.

For honest schools, housing deposits give the school some protection against the significant percentage of dishonest, corrupt, incompetent, destructive and irresponsible teachers who find their way to Korea.

Many teachers will fail to pay their bills or damage their free housing and furnishings and leave their honest employer holding the bag. Some teachers who finish their contracts and get all their pay and benefits still rob their employers in this way at the end of a contract. Many of the numerous incompetent teachers who are fired also leave behind bills and damage. And runners (typically misfits, incompetents, and defective personalities) even more commonly leave behind damages and unpaid bills. For these reasons, housing deposits are quite common at private schools and standard at public schools as well.

For dishonest and corrupt schools, housing deposits become a financial tie to prevent teachers from leaving, or a chance to rip off teachers after completing their contract. This is less common than teachers cheating their schools, but it is what you want to watch out for.

The very best schools will take the risk and require no housing deposit.

Honest, high quality schools recognize that each new teacher is a different individual, and that past problems with another individual does not automatically justify greeting the new teacher with suspicion and distrust.



However they are legal here ONLY if you agree to them. The employer can NOT unilaterally take out money from your pay for such a purpose if there is no such clause or the clause was removed prior to signing.
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I-am-me



Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Hermit Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I paid my own apt deposit for my own apartment. Contract is between me and apt owner. I would never do a deposit with a hagwon. They are too shady and might use any reason not to give you the deposit back. Gepik has 900,000 won deposit, but i trust them more. Take lots of pictures of your apt just in case they want to bill you for any damges.
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cincynate



Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Jeju-do, South Korea

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would find another job. 600,000 is a little steep. Usually I see around 300,000. I wouldn't want to be tied to my school for that much money. However, it is common, and even GEPIK (Public school system) makes their teachers pay a housing deposit. Its a personal choice. If the contract is good, you've done your research and the hakwon seams respectable, then it shouldn't be a problem.
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ThingsComeAround



Joined: 07 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Are housing deposits normal? Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

However they are legal here ONLY if you agree to them. The employer can NOT unilaterally take out money from your pay for such a purpose if there is no such clause or the clause was removed prior to signing.


The employer can also choose not to employ you if you alter the contract~ pretty much binding to me!
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