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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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 Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| v88 wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Ya gotta admit, there are some seriously mentally challenged people in the ESL industry. You have to wonder how in the world they finished college (or forged their degrees) given their utter lack of common sense or any hint of intellect. |
I sometimes wonder how some folks here managed to find the airport. |
They did not find it, their mommy drove them to the aiport back home and they were picked up by their employer on arrival and taken to their appartment.  |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Geumchon
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| AlastairKirby wrote: |
When I came to Korea It is because I needed to get the hell out of the UK.
After 3 years in Korea I came back. The UK isn't so bad. But being away from Korea makes me realise how good it is in Korea.
When I arrived in 2008 I was 25, 4 years since I graduated with 2 years experience in a UK secondary school. I went off the rails a bit in my first year, as most of us do if we are honest.
What I noticed in 2009-2010 was that a lot of people were arriving straight out of University. People with no real basis of comparison, no real work experience. Having experience of supermarkets, call centres, and British teenagers made me really appreciate the life I had in Korea.
Maybe newbies are taking advantage of their life here because they haven't had the chance to see how bad things are back home. It's not selfishness on their part so much as ignorance. The freedom can go to your head a little bit, but when more experienced expats commented on my behaviour and told me to dial it down I listened. I think these newbies are the same. The older crowd need to be a bit more assertive, newbies need to be a bit less sensitive. Korea gives us a lot of freedom, so we should all try and be a bit more respectful and not abuse it.
I don't begrudge these newbies enjoying themselves and partying it up. It's not their fault they're young and invincible. It's the systems fault for employing them. Give a 22 year old a free apartment and cheap alcohol...
I've met a couple of students in the UK who've asked me about teaching in Korea, I told them frankly that the market is very competitive right now and conditions for newbies are worse than a couple of years ago, but that it is still worthwhile and they should do it. I would recommend anyone do it.
If I'm still teaching in Korea in 8 years and there is still an EFL industry I look forward to showing my Nephew the ropes.
We all have our reasons for coming here. Most of us would agree that whatever we are looking for in life we get a better deal here. There is something for everyone.
File me under: Berk who blundered into Korea then realised he could have a good life there and needed to buck his ideas up. Korea made me a better person. But in my first year I was a c*nt. |
It's funny, many newcomers will slag off Korea and think that because it's their first "real" job, the next job they get upon returning to their home country (usually America) will be better in terms of pay and in terms of work. When I hear this from newcomers I usually tell them that they're not going to get work this good back home.
They all think they're the exception, too. They know they're going to go back and make 60k a year within a few months despite having nothing on their resume other than a year(ish) in Korea and a Sociology degree. They're really freaking cocky about it too so I don't even like to broach the subject with them anymore.
The truth is, many of them will never be this well off back home until they're in their 30s. Many of them will also come back to Korea or move around all over the place trying various things before it really sinks in that their generation is screwed employment wise. I know people in their mid-30s with decent educations that spend time in Korea, went back to the US to hit the employment market as hard as they could, accepted defeat and then returned. If it happens to them, these 20-somethings don't stand a chance unless they don't mind working at crap jobs.
Still, try telling them this!  |
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Lonewolf
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject: You people need to open your mind and enjoy life around you. |
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I love how you people rate everyone as a loser because they choose to be here. Not all of us fit into your boat. I came here because I wanted to. I had a nice job back home. actually I had 2 jobs. I worked as a computer operator for a food distribution company and I had my own computer service center. I came back to Korea because I enjoyed being here I was stationed here in the early 80's. I met a lot of wonderful people and had a lot of very nice experiences as I still do today. I don't live in a bubble of only here for the money. I find living here peaceful and relaxing compared to the rat race I was running back home. I do however find it annoying that other foreigners have trouble speaking to each other. I think it's the fact they think just because I'm an English teacher doesn't mean we have the same things in common idea. I personally think that is a good reason to talk to each other learning new things and ideas from each other helps us to enjoy more in life. Don't be so fast to judge someone on how they look or how they act it's probably because you ignored them they shut out the world around them. I think it's funny just because I'm not 20 i can't be your friend.
Last edited by Lonewolf on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: You people need to open your mind and enjoy life around |
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| Lonewolf wrote: |
| I love how you people rate everyone as a looser because they choose to be here. Not all of us fit into your boat. I came here because I wanted to. I had a nice job back home. actually I had 2 jobs. I worked as a computer operator for a food distribution company and I had my own computer service center. I came back to Korea because I enjoyed being here I was stationed here in the early 80's. I met a lot of wonderful people and had a lot of very nice experiences as I still do today. I don't live in a bubble of only here for the money. I find living here peaceful and relaxing compared to the rat race I was running back home. I do however find it annoying that other foreigners have trouble speaking to each other. I think it's the fact they think just because I'm an English teacher doesn't mean we have the same things in common idea. I personally think that is a good reason to talk to each other learning new things and ideas from each other helps us to enjoy more in life. Don't be so fast to judge someone on how they look or how they act it's probably because you ignored them they shut out the world around them. I think it's funny just because I'm not 20 i can't be your friend. |
No one is rating everyone here as a loser. And I'm fairly sure my ignoring someone was not the reason they shut out the world around them. |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| mmstyle wrote: |
I wanted to read through the thread before I replied (my hubby insisted I write the above as soon as I read it, though).
I guess we fit into the last original category. We both like aspects of teaching. I find experiencing cultures outside of my own very rewarding. I came with some debt, but stayed long after I paid it off. My husband came with no debt...he just wanted to go to a new country. We've both had enough of Korea for now, and will move on at the end of the contract...but to a new country, not to either of our own. Since I married someone from another country, though, I will now be a permanent expat.
We do not and will never have 1.5 kids in daycare, probably never have a mortgage, and given that I know heaps of people whose 401Ks where decimated with the financial collapse, I know better than to expect all my hard work and savings will (for certain) be there when I hit retirement. I expect things to get worse (especially in my own country), and I want to experience life, rather than life in debt. |
I see the logic in this but at the same time your savings can be there when you retire if you save right! There are ways to save more conservatively without risking losing your savings and thus have them there for you at retirement.
My point on all this is always the same: people need to do what is right for them but they also need to be very careful about not being lost in the NOW. This means that what you feel as fine right now may not be something you want to be doing in 10-15 years! Just have to remain aware of this and understand that what you do or do not do now will impact your options later. |
Obviously, we are still saving. Having taken something of a hit, and knowing a number of people who have, I have a lot less trust in the system. It's definitely not geared toward the little guy, it's rigged for the big guys. So, while we are planning for the future, we have both come to the conclusion that if we only live to save, and don't concern ourselves with living the best possible life (for me, this is not just a financial concept, but also a philosophical one) then we are wasting our time. We could save thousands more and get hit by a bus. Also, I do not have high hopes for the future of the human race (this, again, is my personal philosophy, and one my husband doesn't quite share) and that makes me feel like I should live more for now than later. At least, more in the now than I had been for many years of my life. But, that is another thread entirely.
I also think that if people know that they won't have kids or pay American level higher education rates, they can look at life very differently. It also means that we may be doing the exact same thing 10-15 years from now and doing just fine. (PGHB, this is not directed at you, just general observation) I'm not quite sure why so many people are so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go back home, and come from places that are more expensive than where they are currently making money. That is understandable, but I don't know why they knock people who've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never will/may never want to ever go home again.
I've lost track of the "categories" on this thread. Which category do those people fit into? |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mmstyle wrote: |
I'm not quite sure why so many people are so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go back home, and come from places that are more expensive than where they are currently making money. That is understandable, but I don't know why they knock people who've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never will/may never want to ever go home again.
I've lost track of the "categories" on this thread. Which category do those people fit into? |
The category that is going to realize in the end that they have no other place TO go but home when they are old and decrepit and other countries won't allow them to stay any longer as they are no use to them any more. |
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I-am-me
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Hermit Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| lol...pretty accurate!!! In another few years I might be in the last category!!! |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Draz wrote: |
| mmstyle wrote: |
I'm not quite sure why so many people are so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go back home, and come from places that are more expensive than where they are currently making money. That is understandable, but I don't know why they knock people who've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never will/may never want to ever go home again.
I've lost track of the "categories" on this thread. Which category do those people fit into? |
The category that is going to realize in the end that they have no other place TO go but home when they are old and decrepit and other countries won't allow them to stay any longer as they are no use to them any more. |
Hmm, interesting. However, as I am married to someone from another country that allows dual citizenship, so, not so much. Also, my father is retired to another country, legally. My uncle is semi-retired to yet another country. A good friend has parents that also have dual residency (they keep changing their minds, but I don't know much about the circumstances. Perhaps because their son has dual citizenship). There are other options. You seem to be knocking an option that you *apparently* don't know much about. I'm from a country that doesn't want it's own decrepit old people. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Paddycakes wrote: |
I'll do it by age:
Age 22 to 25: Fresh out of college and not on any corporate fast track. They're the hippy backpacker crowd with a few Valley Girls and Frat boys thrown in for good measure; they enjoy the opportunity to live in a strange land and make a few bucks while paying down some student loan debt. Still very much in "university mode" they like to over-analyze situations and have a bit of an intellectual superiority complex, even though BAs and MAs are a dime a dozen and most grown ups think they're naive and a bit silly. Like to pontificate on the joys of western liberalism and anti-racism all the while making racist states about Koreans.
Usually stay in Korea a year or two max before going home still trying to figure out what to do with their lives. They are the majority. Some of them will return to Korean -disillusioned with the West- after they learn the hard way that some Western bosses can be just as bad, corrupt and idiotic as a lot of Korean bosses.
At the same time, some of them will stay home after having enjoyed their little Asian adventure, find respectable jobs and careers, often as professional teachers, and live the rest of their lives as middle-class suburban lemmings.
Age 25 to 30: Several years after graduation, they're learning the hard way that the economy doesn't really give a dam about the "critical thinking and writing skills" they picked while spending four years studying political science.
Often saddled by large student and credit card debts and floundering from temp job to temp job and living paycheck to paycheck, often doing low level call center work for the minimum wage, they stumble across a job ad that promises an escape from reality: A free airline ticket and 2.2 million a month.
They realize they don't fit very well into the corporate business world back home, and they're going nowhere fast. Unlike the 22 to 25 year-old set, they've got some personal baggage.
A lot can't hack Korea and flee back home, more disillusioned, depressed and bitter than when they arrived.
Age 30 to 40: It's no longer a question of who is a Freak... it's become a question of who isn't a Freak. With any chance of having a real career and a normal life style back home quickly fading in the real view mirror with each passing year, the only thing that keeps them going is their dream university job that offers 6 months off a year, but pays a salary on par with the 21 year-old at the Hogwan.
All it takes to get into a university is an MA, any MA, and thank god for those internet MA's that can be purchased and completed on-line.
At this stage in life, they're something of a veteran in Korea. They know the scene well, are are probably married to a Korean. You'll find a few normal people in this crowd who regard ESL as a serious profession, but their numbers are starting to thin fast.
The one who "have it" have already found respectable teaching positions back home, sometimes even at the college level.
Age 40 to 50: Their biggest claim to fame in life is making the "News of the Weird", not once, not twice, but three times running in their home countries.
They are the terminally unemployable back home. It doesn't matter if the economy is hot or cold back home, these people just aren't able to functional in a workplace environment where people can see them for who they are since there is no language/cultural gap to hide behind.
Often handicapped by various emotional, health and social skill problems, and in complete denial of said problems, they scare the newbies but somehow manage to show up to work at their university to avoid getting fired.
A bit edgy and off center, they are quick to blame all their problems on "politics" and the world as a whole, but never themselves.
Often married to a Korean, they would like to return home because being treated like a 2nd class citizen for years on end can take its toll, but they realize they have nothing to go back to. At least Korea provides them with a steady income and something of an identity, which is way more than they'll ever have back home.
Age 50 and up: After getting kicked out the Philippines for overstaying their visa, they arrive in Incheon with their Viagra in one hand and Jack Daniels in the other.
Quickly realizing that the action here costs 10 times what it costs in Angeles City, and that even Wonderland won't take them, they quickly run out of cash and are found dead in front of an Anma shortly thereafter.
In case any of you are wondering: I'm the last category. |
...and sometimes debts are so large that you're paying them off well until age 40, especially if you didn't pay on them right away in your 20's. Maybe you stay because you like the experience. I worked for a bit and then came over. 30's now. No loserdom for me. Lot's of 20's K chicks seem to like me fine. But dang that global downturn and lingering debts. Ha ha.
Overall, your post does not apply to everyone. If someone is 50 and here, maybe they actually want to go abraod after working at home for years. Some of those guys are pretty cool. Some can be jaded about life and amount to nothing also. But there is no steriotype that's really true based on age. I'd say the original description is prob more accurate. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| mmstyle wrote: |
| Draz wrote: |
| mmstyle wrote: |
I'm not quite sure why so many people are so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go back home, and come from places that are more expensive than where they are currently making money. That is understandable, but I don't know why they knock people who've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never will/may never want to ever go home again.
I've lost track of the "categories" on this thread. Which category do those people fit into? |
The category that is going to realize in the end that they have no other place TO go but home when they are old and decrepit and other countries won't allow them to stay any longer as they are no use to them any more. |
Hmm, interesting. However, as I am married to someone from another country that allows dual citizenship, so, not so much. Also, my father is retired to another country, legally. My uncle is semi-retired to yet another country. A good friend has parents that also have dual residency (they keep changing their minds, but I don't know much about the circumstances. Perhaps because their son has dual citizenship). There are other options. You seem to be knocking an option that you *apparently* don't know much about. I'm from a country that doesn't want it's own decrepit old people. |
Best hope you're elegible for national (state) pension in whatever country you end up in when you're old and decrepid....
It's certainly my 'back-up plan lol.' |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| mmstyle wrote: |
| Draz wrote: |
| mmstyle wrote: |
I'm not quite sure why so many people are so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go back home, and come from places that are more expensive than where they are currently making money. That is understandable, but I don't know why they knock people who've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never will/may never want to ever go home again.
I've lost track of the "categories" on this thread. Which category do those people fit into? |
The category that is going to realize in the end that they have no other place TO go but home when they are old and decrepit and other countries won't allow them to stay any longer as they are no use to them any more. |
Hmm, interesting. However, as I am married to someone from another country that allows dual citizenship, so, not so much. Also, my father is retired to another country, legally. My uncle is semi-retired to yet another country. A good friend has parents that also have dual residency (they keep changing their minds, but I don't know much about the circumstances. Perhaps because their son has dual citizenship). There are other options. You seem to be knocking an option that you *apparently* don't know much about. I'm from a country that doesn't want it's own decrepit old people. |
I think (and correct me if I am wrong) that her meant that by not saving much or planning you will leave yourself few options down the road and when you reach a certain age, you will not employable in many countries (no work visa would be issued if for example you exceed retirement age) or if you get sick you will have fewer options still.
You may have dual citizenship but that will not shield you from what he was saying.
Anyway, to each his own! |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Well, who knows if it will last, but my husband's country does have options for the elderly. The funny thing is, everyone seems to have assumed that we are broke. We're by no means rich, but I have more in savings than any of my siblings do, and they are all back home working 40 or more hours a week.
What I'm really advocating is a balance of saving and living a good life. But, i think it's very realistic to realize that you can save for years and it can all be stripped away at a moments notice with the way laws are structured in many current societies.
I do have to worry that I won't get sick (it's my biggest concern), but in my country, getting truly sick means that you will lose your health insurance (and potentially lose everything thereafter) no matter how hard you work. Once you leave your job for a particular period of time, your health insurance is gone, gone, gone. It doesn't matter if you worked for years. This happened to a few friends and acquaintances back home. I think those of you who think that living to work and save can all easily end up for naught, especially in this day and age of hyper speculation.
Honest, no BS question: do you actually think that everything you are saving now can't be taken/inflated/speculated away? |
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Modernist
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| do you actually think that everything you are saving now can't be taken/inflated/speculated away? |
OOoohh, do you have some nice shiny gold bars stocked up too, for the big collapse?
I mean, obviously currency values can shift. And sure, hyperinflation is at least theoretically possible [but if you watch the actions of the Fed, ECB, BOE, BOJ, etc it looks to me like they are TOO concerned about inflation and not enough with stagnation, but anyway]. But then again, tomorrow a flu pandemic could start and kill half the planet [did you see Contagion?]. The next day, a huge asteroid could be sighted and even our best oil drillers couldn't divert it [shameless 90s reference] so we're all dead. The week after that we could find out peak oil has already come and there's no energy and we can't move food supplies and airlines are grounded and OH MY GOD THE WHOLE ECONOMY RUNS ON OIL AND EVERYTHING WILL STOP....
So you know, you can spend all day on this sort of thing. If you want to play games with Ron Paul about fiat money and take some solace in buying pretty shiny metal...it IS your life and your money.
Relative to your larger question about living to work vs working to live, I would say I'm with you philosophically. The difference is, you seem to be rather condescending to others who may prefer living in their home countries, having jobs that don't involve a series of 1-year contracts, and actually like the stability of a house and a spouse and perhaps a kid or two.
For me, I don't LIKE teaching very much. Most days it's just a slog. I think Draz is the same, and so are many people here. The notion of doing this every day for the rest of my life is a nightmare. I am sick of always being a foreigner, an outsider. I want to live in a place I fit, a place that feels right for once. And I DO have faith in the future of the human race, we mess things up royally but we are a clever bunch of apes and we can fix stuff too. We do it every day--I see it happen and I will be proud to help at least a little bit instead of only 'living for now'.
I would, and will, trade the 'flexibility' of life abroad and the country-to-country meandering of the ESL teacher for a sort-of-normal life at home. I am not a citizen of the world, I am not a 'global nomad' and I see no pride in being a person claiming such. I want to go home. So do most of us. That's why 'so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path.' |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| mmstyle wrote: |
| Draz wrote: |
| mmstyle wrote: |
I'm not quite sure why so many people are so many people don't see living abroad (teaching or otherwise) as a real life path. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go back home, and come from places that are more expensive than where they are currently making money. That is understandable, but I don't know why they knock people who've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never will/may never want to ever go home again.
I've lost track of the "categories" on this thread. Which category do those people fit into? |
The category that is going to realize in the end that they have no other place TO go but home when they are old and decrepit and other countries won't allow them to stay any longer as they are no use to them any more. |
Hmm, interesting. However, as I am married to someone from another country that allows dual citizenship, so, not so much. Also, my father is retired to another country, legally. My uncle is semi-retired to yet another country. A good friend has parents that also have dual residency (they keep changing their minds, but I don't know much about the circumstances. Perhaps because their son has dual citizenship). There are other options. You seem to be knocking an option that you *apparently* don't know much about. I'm from a country that doesn't want it's own decrepit old people. |
There are other options but you have to start thinking about them early on. The point is that NO country wants old people around so you have to get residency rights when you still can. (When you are young.) If you just spend your life farting around the world you might end up with limited options in the end. In Korea for example unmarried people (or those not married to Koreans) lose their residency when they lose their jobs.
As you mentioned marrying into a desired country is a good way to avoid returning home. I've definitely got my eye on that one.  |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Modernist, I don't mean to come across as condescending toward those who would rather live and work at home at all. When I first left home, I thought I would be back in 2 years-I never expected to meet someone and fall in love while I was here. I try not to come across as condescending in my posts here, and go out of my way to try to be polite on this forum, if you are familiar with my posts (I get ignored a lot, so you might not be  ). If some things changed back home, I would be happy to go home-I miss it. The country itself is beautiful, and it has a lot to recommend it. I don't understand why so many people who are on this board seem so anti-live abroad, when obviously, most of those who are in ESL are living abroad. People who choose to do this long term catch a lot of flack on this board, which just doesn't make sense to me. So, I was just trying to show a different perspective that I think is legit. I guess I'm not very convincing (maybe cuz I don't have any shiny gold).
I have no idea if we will do this long term. Until very recently, we talked about doing this for maybe 2-3 more years, then settling down. A lot of things have converged to make us reconsider our long term plans, but I expect to still go home some day. I'd love to have a house, but I've decided I don't want to have a mortgage to have one.
Draz, I married an amazing guy...the fact that I now have another option for a place to settle down, is a bonus. |
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