Korean Job Discussion Forums

[koreatimes]

[premiummince]

With the 'which/that' rule 'which' is for clauses that you can omit. 'That' is for those you can't.

As for the 'from which/from where', both are OK. And they are both referring to the river bank.

As for a difference, 'which' is used more formally in that situation.

[Privateer]

The relative pronoun 'where' refers to a place in cases where the words 'here' or 'there' can substitute for the place in question in an independent clause.

For example:

This is the cafe.
+
We are supposed to meet them here (i.e. at this cafe).
=
This is the cafe where we are supposed to meet them.

This shows that the word 'where' does not substitute simply for the place noun 'cafe' but for the (locative?) prepositional phrase 'at this cafe'. This means a preposition placed in front of 'where' is redundant. The relative pronoun 'which', on the other hand, does simply stand for a noun, so we can and do say 'in which', 'from which' etc.

The same is true for the words 'here' and 'there': they cannot function as subject or object pronouns (much to the confusion of Korean students), but stand for prepositional phrases. Hence it's incorrect to add a preposition in front of the words 'here' or 'there' - except when talking about enclosed spaces as in "Put the knives and forks in there".

[premiummince]

Missed it.

[The Cosmic Hum]

For sake of argument�I will go with �from where� as being most easily defensible from my position�though it doesn�t make it right.

Rewriting the sentence makes it clearer.

From where it rests above the bank of the river, the castle commands a spectacular view.

To use the original OP�using �from where�
The castle rests above the bank of the river, from where it commands a spectacular view.

To break down the dependent prepositional adverbial clause.
(from) - proposition (where) - adverbial of location - above the bank of the river
form where (it) -anaphoric pronoun (antecedent - castle)
With direct substitution�
From (above the bank of the river) (the castle) commands a spectacular view.

From above the bank of the river, the castle commands a spectacular view.

He looked down from above with an angelic smile.

As a mlutiple preposition...it is common enough...and not necessarily redundant.

Fortunately, a lot of good information has already been shared in this thread, and I don�t want to step on anyone�s toes�as most of the information about this topic has been raised by one poster or another.

One point is though�that this is definitely a regional usage debate�as Privateer has mentioned.
Depending on where you are from�either one of these constructions is likely to sound quite odd.
I am not familiar with �from which� in that context, so if someone is more familiar with that construction, perhaps they could break it down as well and show how it also works.

Another point is as KT briefly mentioned early on� an abstract vs. physical referencing problem.
Both �from which� and �from where� are best used in today�s English when the context is referencing an abstract idea.

From where I am sitting, it looks like I could get screwed on this analysis. (from where�not literal�abstract)


There has been much discussion about subjective opinion�and this is also a good point�as both �from which� and �from where� are older English constructs without too much practical application in today�s English�in the context of the OP.

From where do you come?

The never-end-a-sentence-in-a-preposition-rule�which was only ever a prescriptionist�s wet dream�never really a rule�has been long abandoned by today�s grammarians. However, we still have the association in formal grammar�so we get people using �from where� and �from which� leaning on formality�rather than clarity.

Which is why some hear �from where� in the OP and think�wtf�way too formal�even archaic.
In the OP, where doesn�t require a preposition...it isn�t an abstract construction.

Another interesting association here is collocative�and an example may help.
This apartment, which commands a great view, is awesome.
Luxurious cottages that command a great view are yours for the renting.
The whole �commanding a great view� expression(collocation)�again, another old expression being used in both restrictive and non-restrictive relative clauses further complicates the issue.
Of course either �which� or �that� can be used...depending on the restrictiveness of the clause.
�which� is the more formal and can be used in both��that� typically only in restrictive clauses.
When this line of thinking is applied to the OP�it is just natural to link the grammar and take �from which� as the more formally prescriptive answer�but not necessarily true.

My undying apologies for such a long post�I didn�t have time to write a short one. (now 2:30am ...must go to bed)
However, if you read this far�I will end with an old grammar joke�timely for this post.

A sweet old lady from the country side goes into her little town to catch a bus into the big city to see the sights and do some shopping. The bus arrives full of people from far and wide. The sweet old lady sees a well dressed young lady�obviously a well educated city girl� she thinks to herself, and she sits down next to her hoping to chat and learn a few things about big city life.
The sweet old lady leans over and kindly introduces herself and asks the young lady, �Where are you from?�
�Well�, says the young lady, �Where I am from, we use proper English grammar and never end a sentence with a preposition.�
The sweet old lady leans back in her seat for a moment to reflect on her comment and recalls her days of learning proper English grammar�she blushes with embarrassment at her mistake and makes another attempt.
The sweet old lady leans over to the young lady again and asks,
�So, where are you from bitch?�


Hope this is useful.

[raewon]

The Cosmic Hum - Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. It was indeed helpful. It's also interesting that you made the point about the regional usage debate. I have found that this is the case in many situations (even when dealing with trivial things such as prepositions). The problem is that
many native speakers are not familiar with regional usages. I think it's important not to judge something as being "wrong" simply because it sounds extremely unnatural.

The joke made my day as well.

Thanks for all of the replies.

[Birder]

Where I come from (place and education) I'm inclined to think that if we used "from which," it wouldn't work.

"The castle rests above the bank of the river, _______ it commands a
spectacular view."

To me, that sounds like the castle has a pair of eyes on the river, eyes that have a great view. Perhaps it's not, but "from which" almost sounds like a misplaced modifier. To me, in this case, using "which" seems to point to the river, but "where" seems to point to the place the castle is located.

But perhaps we're just dealing with an ambiguously phrased sentence. "The castle, resting above the bank of a river, commands a spectacular view." "The castle rests above the bank of a river and commands a spectacular view." "The castle, which rest above the bank of a river, commands a spectacular view." There are always a thousand and one ways to say something; always look for the least ambiguous ways to say it.

[The Cosmic Hum]

[Birder]

*blushes*

[Privateer]

I knew if I stuck my neck out someone would hack through it. 'From where' is fine. 'From which' too.

E.g: Revelation, 2:5

[The Cosmic Hum]