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Suicide Girls shown as glamorous heroes in Korean Music Vids
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TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject:

I found this

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/oecd-factbook-2009/suicide-rates_factbook-2009-graph162-en

What was interesting was this:

Quote:

Comparability

Despite the ICD, there are comparability problems with suicide data. Countries have different procedures for recording suicide as the underlying cause of death, and these procedures may have changed over time. In addition suicide may be under-reported because of a societal stigma attached to it. This socio-cultural norm may vary across countries and over time.

Keeping the comparability problem in mind let's turn to Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

Quote:

In 2009, the number of suicides rose 2 percent to 32,845 exceeding 30,000 for the twelfth straight year and equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people.[7] This amounts to approximately one suicide every 15 minutes.[3] However, this figure is somewhat disputed since it is arguably capped by the conservative definition of "suicide" that has been adopted by the Japanese authorities, which differs from the WHO's definition.[clarification needed] Some people[who?] thus suggest a rather larger figure of 100,000 suicides a year. Currently, the conservative per year estimate is still significantly higher than for any other OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) country except South Korea.

(bolding mine)

So while the conservative figure is lower than South Korea keep in mind that suicide in Japan is defined by Japanese authorities and not the WHO.

Which is why stating S.K has the highest rate among OECD countries may not exactly be true. If all countries used the same method it would be but they don't. Personally I find it hard to believe that Japan, a country that has 2.5 times the population of Korea and a country with a long history of glorified suicide has a lower suicide rate (as defined by the WHO) than Korea.

Quote:

Suicide has never been criminalized in Japan.[clarification needed] Japanese society's attitude toward suicide has been termed "tolerant," and on many occasions a suicide is seen as a morally responsible action.[11]

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject:

atwood wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

Quote:

Suicide is suicide. You need to understand that.

That's an obviously ignorant statement. Suicides happen.

See, you do understand. And they happen more in Korea. End of story.

They happen more in Korea because you say so? Where is your proof?

A total number of accidents is meaningless unless you address how they happened. They could be injuries, car accidents, a slip and fall, etc...

Lumping them altogether without rhyme or reason is pointless. Somehow you have an agenda and the larger numbers would help to achieve it. Maybe you can convince others, but I don't believe a suicide is the same as someone killing themselves after being influenced. They are 2 entirely different actions and happen for different reasons.

bekinseki

Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

bekinseki wrote:

While it's not necessarily a good idea to trust Wikipedia, the same can be said for any journalistic article.

True...however said article was citing the WHO's stats. And the WHO is a reputable and trustworthy organization.

Hmm that OECD page is interesting I'll have to take a look and see if I can find that link.

And Wikipedia was citing the OECD page, yet both of them provided less than the absolute best available information.

bekinseki

Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject:

koreatimes wrote:

atwood wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

Quote:

Suicide is suicide. You need to understand that.

That's an obviously ignorant statement. Suicides happen.

See, you do understand. And they happen more in Korea. End of story.

Your fight isn't with the illustrious members of Dave's ESL Cafe, but with the WHO, OECD, and other international groups that gather these statistics. Maybe as Urban Myth points out, you should also argue with the statisticians of Korea and Japan. However, you're still wrong, even if you were to somehow convince us all to agree with you.

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:57 am Post subject:

bekinseki wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

atwood wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

Quote:

Suicide is suicide. You need to understand that.

That's an obviously ignorant statement. Suicides happen.

See, you do understand. And they happen more in Korea. End of story.

Wrong about what? I admit sometimes I am wrong. What exactly am I wrong about? I don't know who "us all" is. You are attempting to do the very thing that creates suicidal "urges" by isolating an individual from a group.

This actually doesn't happen in group suicides, so it's funny seeing you act in accordance with what I am saying. Maybe this is just a game for you. Doesn't matter, I have known people who were depressed and committed suicide. I know how they think and feel, and I also know people like Dr. Fredrick Lenz, who ran a cult like group in the 80's and 90's. These people were almost like Heaven's Gate. If committing suicide was agreed upon I wouldn't be surprised if they did it. It is COMPLETELY different than the people I know who have taken their lives for different reasons.

I don't see why you are trying to make an obvious dumb claim about Korean suicides. You have a hidden agenda that you haven't shared.

Why are you so worried about Korean suicides? Let's say you are correct. Why does it matter? Let's say 3,000 suicides in Korea and 3 in Spain.

Why not be worried for the 3,003 suicides instead of just the 3,000 in Korea? If you are lumping all suicides into one category, then what is making you so interested in cutting off recognition of suicides outside of Korea?

Again, pointing to one area and then saying "all suicides are the same" is quite comical because the hypocrisy of it all is so blatant anyone with common sense would see it.

If I were in your shoes I would be against any suicide, hence the hidden agenda. You must want to do something similar to an anti-abortionist.

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:47 am Post subject:

koreatimes wrote:

bekinseki wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

atwood wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

Quote:

Suicide is suicide. You need to understand that.

That's an obviously ignorant statement. Suicides happen.

See, you do understand. And they happen more in Korea. End of story.

You were in a cult? Were you coerced into attempting suicide? Do you have a hidden agenda here?

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:26 am Post subject:

atwood wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

bekinseki wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

atwood wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

Quote:

Suicide is suicide. You need to understand that.

That's an obviously ignorant statement. Suicides happen.

See, you do understand. And they happen more in Korea. End of story.

You were in a cult? Were you coerced into attempting suicide?

First, you should learn to read the context of what I said. I never stated I was coerced into attempting suicide. To the contrary, my argument in this thread is that suicide in groups is more of a condition of conformity. Heaven's Gate was a cult and they did commit suicide, so it's easy to reference them. That doesn't mean conformity to do something else doesn't exist also in groups (same group, they wore the same clothes, shoes, and guys cut their *beep* off).

If you read clearer, you would see I stated, "These people were almost like Heaven's Gate." I used the word "almost". If you are almost home from work, that means you AREN'T home yet. So, no, I wasn't in what I would say a cult.

The group I visited a few times through friends meditated with this guy. He built a community and was accused of taking advantage of members. You can google and read all about it.

Quote:

Do you have a hidden agenda here?

No. I read the original post and wanted to see the agenda for Korea bashing. Now, it seems like every reply I read doesn't present actual facts representing a single Korean killing themself without connection to other people.

If I could see proof that this happens, then maybe I would have reason to single Korea out and call them bad bad bad, and say no no no, don't do this to your people.

However, what I see is no different than people elsewhere in the world. I am still awaiting PROOF.

Konglishman

Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:51 am Post subject:

Koreatimes, Anyone who commits suicide (or at least most people), is suffering from a mental illness. For the overwhelming majority of people, this is simply the garden variety mental illness known as clinical depression. There are plenty of examples of Koreans who have committed suicide without being a part of a group such as former President Roh and former Sogang physics professor Lee Sung-ik just to name a couple of examples. Of course, there have also been group suicides, but these were not cults or even anything close to that phenomena. Instead, those were people who wanted to die but just not alone. They have typically found each other by searching the Internet for other people who wish to commit suicide.

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:25 am Post subject:

Quote:

Of course, there have also been group suicides, but these were not cults or even anything close to that phenomena. Instead, those were people who wanted to die but just not alone.

For your first part, yes I can see the distinction you are making between cults and groups. I am not putting them in the same category, but merely grouping them side by side. A cult would be more dangerous, whereas the group is isolated.

That was the point of bringing up the group I met with, which was not what I consider a cult (even though there are many others who have called them a cult).

For the second part, I doubt ALL 100% of the group suicide people decided beforehand they wanted to kill themselves. There is definitely a concept of copycat crimes (actions), where you get a kid at a school who does a horrific act (Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc...) and others follow. This is not because they genuinely feel the same way though.

You are presenting another layer to all this which just makes the numbers smaller when placed in the right areas.

I don't know if your reply to me was to disagree with me or not, but your comments surely don't refute what I am claiming, and they support the fact the total number of suicides in Korea does not represent exclusively all people who ONLY want to kill themselves. You are supporting my claim there are multiple factors with factors of your own.

Quote:

Anyone who commits suicide (or at least most people), is suffering from a mental illness.

Then it's not anyone. There is no proof either that most are suffering from a mental illness. These sweeping generalizations only work if you have an agenda to push. I don't see why there is a need to do this. Just because you may not do something doesn't make it a component of a mental illness/taboo if someone else chooses to.

You bring up a case here and another case of someone who committed suicide as a way to discredit me, but those are only a few cases.

I could show you this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_timeline

It doesn't prove anything though. It doesn't make my case stronger because I brought up just one case scenario of someone who didn't have control.

I assume though you weren't disagreeing with me, cause if so you did a poor job at it.

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