Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Unposter]

Let's not forget the Philadelphi police bombing of their own city:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

MOVE or the MOVE Organization is a Philadelphia-based black liberation group founded by John Africa. MOVE was described by CNN as "a loose-knit, mostly black group whose members all adopted the surname Africa, advocated a "back-to-nature" lifestyle and preached against technology."[1] The group lives communally and frequently engages in public demonstrations related to several issues.

Since the 1970s, their activities have drawn the attention of the Philadelphia Police Department. A major incident occurred in 1978, when the police raided their Powelton Village home. This raid resulted in the death of one police officer and the imprisonment of nine group members, now known as "The MOVE 9." After this, the group relocated further west to a house on Osage Ave.

In 1985, the group made national news when police dropped a bomb on the Osage house from a helicopter in an attempt to end an armed standoff. The bombing resulted in 11 deaths, including five children and the group's leader, John Africa. Only two occupants survived, Ramona, an adult and Birdie, a child. In addition, 60 homes were destroyed in the resulting fires.[2]

And, please read the wikipedia take on the Kent State Shootings. Their description does not include any aggressive actions including stone throwning into their account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

At this point, at 12:24 p.m.,[1] according to eyewitnesses, a Sgt. Myron Pryor turned and began firing at the students with his .45 pistol.[24] A number of guardsmen nearest the students also turned and fired their M1 Garand rifles at the students. In all, 29 of the 77 guardsmen claimed to have fired their weapons, using a final total of 67 rounds of ammunition. The shooting was determined to have lasted only 13 seconds, although John Kifner reported in the New York Times that "it appeared to go on, as a solid volley, for perhaps a full minute or a little longer."[25] The question of why the shots were fired remains widely debated.

A 2010 audio analysis of a tape recording of the incident by Stuart Allen and Tom Owen, who were described by the Cleveland Plain Dealer as "nationally respected forensic audio experts," concluded that the guardsmen were given an order to fire. The original 30-minute reel-to-reel tape was made by Terry Strubbe, a Kent State communications student who turned on his recorder and put its microphone in his dorm window overlooking the campus. It is the only known recording to capture the events leading up to the shootings. In 2007 Alan Canfora, one of the wounded, located a copy of the tape in a library archive. According to the enhanced recording, a male voice yells "Guard!" Several seconds pass. Then, "All right, prepare to fire!". "Get down!", someone shouts urgently, presumably in the crowd. Finally, "Guard! . . . " followed two seconds later by a long, booming volley of gunshots. The entire spoken sequence lasts 17 seconds. Strubbe himself disagrees with the experts' findings, saying, "It was a really bad recording. It�s pure mud."[26] Ronald Snyder who commanded a National Guard unit at Kent State not involved in shootings said "You would never see anything in training that would say 'Guard, do this.' It would be like saying, 'Army, do this.' It doesn't make sense." [27] Further analysis of the audiotape revealed that four pistol shots and a violent confrontation occurred approximately 70 seconds before the National Guard opened fire. According to The Plain Dealer, this new analysis raised questions about the role of Terry Norman, a Kent State student who was an FBI informant and known to be carrying a pistol during the disturbance. Alan Canfora said it was premature to reach any conclusions.[28]

The Adjutant General of the Ohio National Guard told reporters that a sniper had fired on the guardsmen, which itself remains a debated allegation. Many guardsmen later testified that they were in fear for their lives, which was questioned partly because of the distance between them and the students killed or wounded. Time magazine later concluded that "triggers were not pulled accidentally at Kent State". The President's Commission on Campus Unrest avoided probing the question of why the shootings happened. Instead, it harshly criticized both the protesters and the Guardsmen, but it concluded that "the indiscriminate firing of rifles into a crowd of students and the deaths that followed were unnecessary, unwarranted, and inexcusable."[29]

And, not all the people killed were protestors. Two were innocent students just walking to school:

The shootings killed four students and wounded nine. Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder, had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths.

[Unposter]

If you don't think rich people won't use violence to maintain and increase their wealth, you just haven't read about the history of the labor movement in the U.S.

For example, please check out the Pinkerton Detective Agency:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_National_Detective_Agency

During the labor unrest of the late 19th century and early 20th century, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to provide agents that would infiltrate unions, to supply guards to keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, and sometimes to recruit goon squads to intimidate workers. The best known such confrontation was the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to enforce the strikebreaking measures of Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie, who was abroad; the ensuing conflicts between Pinkerton agents and striking workers led to several deaths on both sides. The Pinkertons were also used as guards in coal, iron, and lumber disputes in Illinois, Michigan, New York, and Pennsylvania, as well as the Great Railroad Strike of 1877.


If economic elites feel threatened, they most definitely will use force. You don't have to look much farther than the Occupy Movement to realize that.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Unposter]

Ok, my bad - strange how I missed that. I'll admit when I am wrong.

Anyway, it was not directly involved - such as a reflex from being hit. And, the commisions questioned how in danger the guard could have been in because they were so far removed from the protestors. And, obviously, the forced used was not appropriate to the situation. And, the fact that innocent people were killed, well...murder is the first thing that comes to mind.

[Steelrails]

[TheUrbanMyth]

What Mr. Steelrails said. Also at least one guardsman was hurt badly enough to require hospitalization.

And let's be very clear on this. It wasn't a bunch of soldiers moving in and shooting everything in their path. The protestors received multiple warnings and choose to disregard it. They pelted the guardsmen with rocks THREE times before bullets were fired And this wasn't the only incident they were involved in.

Two days prior to this the ROTC building was burned down by arson and police officers and firemen were struck by thrown rocks while attempting to fight the fire. (again from the link).

The day before THAT, there was looting and vandalism. When the police showed up some of the protestors threw beer bottles at them.


From the looting to the shooting it was a four day long reign of anarchy. They had days to consider their actions and to avoid this.
It doesn't make it right but it's hardly surprising that it happened either.

[Unposter]

When you justify murder, Urban Myth, you need to take a look at yourself in the mirror.

You should say that to the family of Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder who were just walking to class and weren't even involved in the protests. Heck, you should say that to the family of Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller. I'd like to see what they had to say to you.

Even the Nixon administration said the guard went too far:

The President's Commission on Campus Unrest avoided probing the question of why the shootings happened. Instead, it harshly criticized both the protesters and the Guardsmen, but it concluded that "the indiscriminate firing of rifles into a crowd of students and the deaths that followed were unnecessary, unwarranted, and inexcusable."[29]

Note the unwarranted and inexcusable part.

[Unposter]

Steelrails,

I don't have any problem saying that poor people sometimes do terrible things. But, it is almost unheard of that poor people get away with it. On the other hand, it is almost unheard of that rich people don't.

If there were justice, most of the bad behavior by rich and poor people wouldn't happen.

[Nowhere Man]

[Steelrails]

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Unposter]

I'm sorry but I don't see how it is "understandable." And, I think you overstate about the environment.

[TheUrbanMyth]

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