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DejaVu
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Location: Your dreams
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 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
However, on one single occasion, at Smoothie King, the wrote "big nose" on it.
Personally, when I got that receipt, I dumped my drink on the counter and asked for the manager. I pointed out the name that they had put down for me, and then turned around and left. Didn't take my money back, didn't wait for an apology or explanation. Just left. It felt good!
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Sorry to take away from your story (as I did enjoy it), but isn't "big nose" a compliment in Korea?
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| No matter how much you may try to justify it, calling Asians Ching and Chong is no different from calling random Arabs Saddam, or calling random Indians Gupta. |
Except in my last few posts... where I justified it... there wasn't any effort other than citing pure logic. I'm not against calling a random Arab "Saddam". I just don't think it's humorous due to the my aforementioned points.
What can I say... I'm a free speech apologist. I, too, used to be blinded by sensitivity until I realized that I was just a confused American being offended for others when even they don't know why they are offended.
I'm not against the use of language in any form. However, I do like to make clear lines when necessary (such as on this thread where the term "racism" is being thrown around as if this incident included a hanging). |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Even in pc mad England casual racism is alive and kicking.
I worked as a junior manager in the civil service 5 years ago.
My boss who was oversear in charge of implimenting the introduction of modern foriegn languages into British pimary schools for the Ministry of Education used to call our Muslim Office Juior 'Bomber boy' behind his back in meetings.
He was also a homo and used to brag that he and his immediate underling were famous for 'turning virgins' and if I let him 'break me in' I would never go back to women... |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| DejaVu wrote: |
| Except in my last few posts... where I justified it... there wasn't any effort other than citing pure logic. I'm not against calling a random Arab "Saddam". I just don't think it's humorous due to the my aforementioned points. |
You tried to justify it by saying it was funny to you. I am not saying that for an immature person ethnic sounding words wouldn't be funny. I mean, I crack up every time I see an African and someone calls him Boo Boo man. I know when I see an Irishman I love to put on a funny Irish accent and call him Micky Mick, especially if there is some rhythm to it. Oh the laughs we have. They really should join in, the killjoys.
| DejaVu wrote: |
| What can I say... I'm a free speech apologist. I, too, used to be blinded by sensitivity until I realized that I was just a confused American being offended for others when even they don't know why they are offended. |
Most people nowadays know that calling a pair of Asians Ching and Chong is likely to offend them and could be regarded as offensive by at least a considerable proportion of them. For this reason alone a decent person would not have used those terms.
If you are one of the people who would use those terms, or support the use of them, despite knowing they are likely to cause offence then you should ask yourself why you think that's okay. If the only argument you have to fall back on is 'the syllables sound funny together' then, frankly, you have some growing up to do. |
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Ibsen
Joined: 09 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
One experience I've had: riding on a bus in San Francisco. Dude sitting across from me stares at me hard. I try to ignore him. "What the f are you doing on this bus? You see any other crackers on this bus? Just brown skinned people on here. Get the f off this bus you white devil." He then gets up and encourages me even more to get off. Does anyone else do anything? No. I don't blame them since I think he was on something. I quickly decided to heed his advice.
My (white) friend went to a public school where whites were a minority. He can go on all night telling stories about being called a cracker and going through all kinds of shit.
Where in California do you live? Where there is a white majority? There are definitely certain areas will a white person might face some hostility.
Just to make it clear: I'm not saying us whities encounter racism as much as any other group out there, just saying it DOES happen in California (and other places such as my current home, DC). |
That first story sounds pretty farfetched or you were just VERY unlucky because, honestly, how often do you think that really happens... It is a funny story though lol.
I live in the LA area and grew up in LA. I'm asian, my high school was 50% Mexicans, 25% Blacks, 20% Whites, and about 5% everything else. I was a part of that everything else... I was getting called Jackie Chan, Ching Chong Wong, Smart Asian Kid, Kimchi, The Karate Kid (who's not even Asian I might add), and about 20 other names on a daily basis. After about 2 days I quickly got over taking offense to this, no, rather I took it as a form of endearment, since most of the people calling me those names were obviously not hostile about it and were saying it in a joking manner. I would laugh and shrug it off, and eventually some of those people even became my friends.
What I'm getting at is that people are so overly sensitive to racism nowadays that they think anything that could be taken as racism (even if it doesn't offen them personally) is grounds for outrage. Lots of these university students who grew up without being exposed to diversity and are not accustomed to "racism" and take being called silly names as true racism, when in my opinion, it is not.
When I say I occasionally experience racism, it's times when I actually say in my head (credit to Dave Chappelle for this one) "Wow, that was racist!" Calling someone names like Ching and Chong is not grounds for termination of the employee imo. I'd be willing to bet money that is was done with a light heart, with humor being the primary goal, by a young college or high school student. I really doubt the lady who did the name calling really has some sort of vendetta against all Asians and is trying to get back at them by calling a few Asians Ching and Chong. Either way, that is just my opinion on the matter and the way I was brought up considering my environment. I misspoke in my previous post, I'm not trying to say White's don't experience racism at all, because that would be plain ignorant, just saying that I believe they experience it at a much lower rate than other, non-whites.
| DejaVu wrote: |
What can I say... I'm a free speech apologist. I, too, used to be blinded by sensitivity until I realized that I was just a confused American being offended for others when even they don't know why they are offended.
I'm not against the use of language in any form. However, I do like to make clear lines when necessary (such as on this thread where the term "racism" is being thrown around as if this incident included a hanging). |
Beautifully said |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibsen wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
One experience I've had: riding on a bus in San Francisco. Dude sitting across from me stares at me hard. I try to ignore him. "What the f are you doing on this bus? You see any other crackers on this bus? Just brown skinned people on here. Get the f off this bus you white devil." He then gets up and encourages me even more to get off. Does anyone else do anything? No. I don't blame them since I think he was on something. I quickly decided to heed his advice.
My (white) friend went to a public school where whites were a minority. He can go on all night telling stories about being called a cracker and going through all kinds of shit.
Where in California do you live? Where there is a white majority? There are definitely certain areas will a white person might face some hostility.
Just to make it clear: I'm not saying us whities encounter racism as much as any other group out there, just saying it DOES happen in California (and other places such as my current home, DC). |
That first story sounds pretty farfetched or you were just VERY unlucky because, honestly, how often do you think that really happens... It is a funny story though lol.
I live in the LA area and grew up in LA. I'm asian, my high school was 50% Mexicans, 25% Blacks, 20% Whites, and about 5% everything else. I was a part of that everything else... I was getting called Jackie Chan, Ching Chong Wong, Smart Asian Kid, Kimchi, The Karate Kid (who's not even Asian I might add), and about 20 other names on a daily basis. After about 2 days I quickly got over taking offense to this, no, rather I took it as a form of endearment, since most of the people calling it were obviously not hostile about it and were saying it in a joking manner. I would laugh and shrug it off, and eventually some of those people even became my friends.
What I'm getting at is that people are so overly sensitive to racism nowadays that they think anything that could be taken as racism (even if it doesn't offen them personally) is grounds for outrage. Lots of these university students who grew up without being exposed to diversity and are not accustomed to "racism" take being called silly names as true racism, when in my opinion, it is not.
When I say I occasionally experience racism, it's time where I actually say in my head (credit to Dave Chappelle for this one) "Wow, that was racist!" Being called names like Ching and Chong is not grounds for termination of the employee imo. I'd be willing to bet some money that is was done with a light heart, with humor being the primary goal, by a young college or high school student. I really doubt that the lady who did that really has some sort of vendetta against all Asians and is trying to get back at them by calling a few Asians Ching and Chong. Either way, that is just my opinion on the matter and the way I was brought up considering my environment. Not saying White's don't experience racism at all, because that would be plain ignorant, just saying that I believe they experience it at a lower rate than other, non-whites.
| DejaVu wrote: |
What can I say... I'm a free speech apologist. I, too, used to be blinded by sensitivity until I realized that I was just a confused American being offended for others when even they don't know why they are offended.
I'm not against the use of language in any form. However, I do like to make clear lines when necessary (such as on this thread where the term "racism" is being thrown around as if this incident included a hanging). |
Beautifully said |
I can't speak for your experience, but for all the people like you who can shrug it off there are probably others who can't. Such as in Korea, sometimes it is easy to shrug off, other times it catches you at a bad time and you snap. Our reaction to others' behaviour is somewhat irrelevant. Whether I choose to ignore an insult is up to me, but it is still an insult.
I agree with your assessment that anyone who would use those terms would have to be immature. This doesn't make them racist at all, but it does mean they need to do some self-reflection on how they behave. I jumped in to this discussion late, but I took issue with DejaVu claiming it was funny to call people ethnic names if it appealed to our sense of rhyme, or rhythm. As you have stated, these people are immature. We should also not allow our somewhat childish view on what is funny take precedence over someone's else's desire not to have 'fun' poked at them because of their ethnic background.
This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with respecting other people. I commend you for turning the other cheek at school, but you would also expect to be able to go into a restaurant and not be called Jackie Chan. If you were obese you would not want to be called fatty, or spotty if you had acne. I just have trouble with someone defending insulting a stranger because they like the sound of the syllables together as they insult them. Very strange. |
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Ibsen
Joined: 09 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
I can't speak for your experience, but for all the people like you who can shrug it off there are probably others who can't. Such as in Korea, sometimes it is easy to shrug off, other times it catches you at a bad time and you snap. Our reaction to others' behaviour is somewhat irrelevant. Whether I choose to ignore an insult is up to me, but it is still an insult.
I agree with your assessment that anyone who would use those terms would have to be immature. This doesn't make them racist at all, but it does mean they need to do some self-reflection on how they behave. I jumped in to this discussion late, but I took issue with DejaVu claiming it was funny to call people ethnic names if it appealed to our sense of rhyme, or rhythm. As you have stated, these people are immature. We should also not allow our somewhat childish view on what is funny take precedence over someone's else's desire not to have 'fun' poked at them because of their ethnic background.
This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with respecting other people. I commend you for turning the other cheek at school, but you would also expect to be able to go into a restaurant and not be called Jackie Chan. If you were obese you would not want to be called fatty, or spotty if you had acne. I just have trouble with someone defending insulting a stranger because they like the sound of the syllables together as they insult them. Very strange. |
I agree with some of your points, but I think insults and being called silly names are different. I am totally against insulting people to their face. Calling someone "fatty" if they are overweight or "spotty" if they have acne is completely uncalled for and rude, and something I don't support... BUT I think calling someone a silly name like Kimchi or Jackie Chan is different. Sure you might taken offense to it, but why? You eat kimchi don't you? Last time I checked, it was delicious, why take it as an insult? And Jackie Chan is one awesome actor/martial artist... Hell I'll take that as a compliment... Joking aside, I just feel that being called these silly names shouldn't be taken offensively because they are not inherently offensive unless you yourself decide to take offense. If someone called me a Dirty Kimchi Eater, then I would take offense because they are calling me dirty when they don't even know me, but just Kimchi eater? Well shoot, I'd commend them on realizing I'm Korean and not Japanese |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Depends on how "ching" and "chong" are used.
It's very possible that "lia" is ignorant and has no clue that some people are offended by "ching and chong". Maybe lia really thought it was cute or something.
There's also a chance that Lia knows "ching" and "chong" are offensive. Only Lia knows for sure. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What can I say... I'm a free speech apologist. I, too, used to be blinded by sensitivity until I realized that I was just a confused American being offended for others when even they don't know why they are offended. |
Cool, seeing as you're so into free speech (free speech under law is not termed btw 'going around sayng anything to anyone at anytime) why not go into watts or harlem and call black guys you never met before 'yo whattup Azzeem! Hey yo sambo! Yo dwayne what up mah bro!' |
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Ibsen
Joined: 09 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
Cool, seeing as you're so into free speech (free speech under law is not termed btw 'going around sayng anything to anyone at anytime) why not go into watts or harlem and call black guys you never met before 'yo whattup Azzeem! Hey yo sambo! Yo dwayne what up mah bro!' |
I really don't think they would care... I live right on the border of West Compton and Gardena, many black people live in my neighborhood. They would probably react the same way if you went up to a white guy and said "Hey what's up Jim". They will probably think you are just mistaking them for someone else and inform you of such, not beat you up like savages like many people seem to expect from blacks. |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ibsen wrote: |
| I agree with some of your points, but I think insults and being called silly names are different. I am totally against insulting people to their face. Calling someone "fatty" if they are overweight or "spotty" if they have acne is completely uncalled for and rude, and something I don't support... BUT I think calling someone a silly name like Kimchi or Jackie Chan is different. |
Surely the intent is often the same and it comes from a lack of respect. I would never belittle someone I respected by calling them those names. The content is almost irrelevant, as it is a sign of disrespect.
| Ibsen wrote: |
| If someone called me a Dirty Kimchi Eater, then I would take offense because they are calling me dirty when they don't even know me, but just Kimchi eater? Well shoot, I'd commend them on realizing I'm Korean and not Japanese |
The intent of someone calling you both of these is likely to be the same - it is to belittle and disrespect you, most probably. The 'dirty' resonates more and pushes the button, but both are intended in a similar vein.
I agree that we shouldn't go around being offended by silly name-calling, but we shouldn't also defend someone's right to be disrespectful. While I accept that for some people this is not a big issue and they can take having their ethnic or national group belittled, it is not something they should accept or have to put up with. I don't think anyone would choose to receive that kind of abuse given the choice.
You are right in turning the other cheek and that may be the right approach for you, but if some people out there didn't call people out on that kind of behaviour then it would only increase. Why should you have to put up with abuse from strangers?
I completely agree with you from a personal and psychological perspective. As long as you are truly turning the other cheek and not bottling up aggression then it is the right approach. This doesn't though mean the person dishing out the abuse has any more right to do it. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Ibsen wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
Cool, seeing as you're so into free speech (free speech under law is not termed btw 'going around sayng anything to anyone at anytime) why not go into watts or harlem and call black guys you never met before 'yo whattup Azzeem! Hey yo sambo! Yo dwayne what up mah bro!' |
I really don't think they would care... I live right on the border of West Compton and Gardena, many black people live in my neighborhood. They would probably react the same way if you went up to a white guy and said "Hey what's up Jim". They will probably think you are just mistaking them for someone else and inform you of such, not beat you up like savages like many people seem to expect from blacks. |
Anyone buying this? |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ibsen wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
One experience I've had: riding on a bus in San Francisco. Dude sitting across from me stares at me hard. I try to ignore him. "What the f are you doing on this bus? You see any other crackers on this bus? Just brown skinned people on here. Get the f off this bus you white devil." He then gets up and encourages me even more to get off. Does anyone else do anything? No. I don't blame them since I think he was on something. I quickly decided to heed his advice.
My (white) friend went to a public school where whites were a minority. He can go on all night telling stories about being called a cracker and going through all kinds of shit.
Where in California do you live? Where there is a white majority? There are definitely certain areas will a white person might face some hostility.
Just to make it clear: I'm not saying us whities encounter racism as much as any other group out there, just saying it DOES happen in California (and other places such as my current home, DC). |
That first story sounds pretty farfetched or you were just VERY unlucky because, honestly, how often do you think that really happens... It is a funny story though lol.
... |
It's an odd story and the offender was high maybe, but a person getting harassed due to their race and pressured to get off a bus isn't exactly an "LOL" moment. If anything, it's a WTF moment. Switch the races; is it still "LOL"? |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ibsen wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
Cool, seeing as you're so into free speech (free speech under law is not termed btw 'going around sayng anything to anyone at anytime) why not go into watts or harlem and call black guys you never met before 'yo whattup Azzeem! Hey yo sambo! Yo dwayne what up mah bro!' |
I really don't think they would care... |
Right. Try it out then. Maybe THAT would be an "LOL" moment.
I agree with you that sometimes people can be too sensitive about race and racial matters, but I doubt anyone could talk like the above example and not offend someone. Just because you aren't too bothered by insults and taunts doesn't mean others will feel the same. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
I think it all depends on context.
Like Julius, I'm sure we've all had waygookin written on a receipt in lieu of our names. This bugged me only insofar as the cashiers would ask my Korean friends for their names, but not me, even though I ordered my food in Korean.
However, on one single occasion, at Smoothie King, the wrote "big nose" on it.
Someone pointed out they would find it funny and laugh it off, but here is where context comes into play. As a foreigner in Korea, there are enough subtle things that get under your skin - people not sitting next to you on the bus, people pushing ahead of you in line, people just treating you like you don't exist. |
Its wierd but most racism doesn't really bother me so long as its not in my face.
I just feel a sort of wondering pity for the people who veer away from sitting next to me etc.
What does bother me is the stuff that directly impacts me.
Kids harrasing me in the street.
An ajosshi whispering something insulting to my g/f.
Students disrespecting me because I'm not korean.
etc. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Not too serious in my opinion. Anybody who is British knows how Brits treat Indians with names. Also they do it out in the open in restaurants.
By the way you should see how the Brits teaching in Thailand talk about the foriegner teachers even Americans. It's pretty foul. |
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