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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| wintermute wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Unposter wrote: |
| I'm sorry but I don't see how it is "understandable." And, I think you overstate about the environment. |
The "environment" was from your link. And if you think that having hundreds of people yelling and throwing rocks at you and seeing your buddy taken to the hospital as a result of such rock throwing is not stressful...
That is what I meant by "understandable". When people are under stress they don't always behave as they should.
They were retreating to regroup and some students came after them (again from your link). Sounds like they panicked and opened fire. Remember these were not regular Army troops but 'civilian soldiers' (so more likely to lose their heads in tough circumstances which it would appear is what they did).
And if you want to say "sorry" you could start by apologizing for claiming that I am attempting to justify murder...when I CLEARLY SAID THAT THE SHOOTING WAS NOT RIGHT. Maybe the third time is the charm? |
Can we forget Kent State? Unless we are relating it to a point about the occupy protests, it's a bit of a red herring. Unposter: focus! |
I am quite willing to forget Kent State. Though I am curious as to why you are addressing your post to me as I was not the one who introduced it into the conversation.
But yes let's get back on track. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
What he said.
If that fails, then nonviolent protest or strikes or secession.
The fact that the clowns don't get voted out is an indictment of us, not them. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Well tum and rails, voting DOES allow people to vote out a party, but not out of the current system and version of democratic process America currently operates.
The only way of doing that is via revolution and would likely involve arms. |
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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
What he said.
If that fails, then nonviolent protest or strikes or secession.
The fact that the clowns don't get voted out is an indictment of us, not them. |
I agree in general that we have the "system" we deserve, and we all consent to it and are part of it, so it's not really helpful to think in terms of "us" and "them".
But like the ol' frog in the boiling water, undesirable changes can take place slowly over time without provoking a response. This causes tension to build.
At a certain point people agitate for corrective action. How this is resolved is a good indicator of how functional a democracy it is. If it is resolved at a low level, the society remains peaceful and stable.
The longer it is suppressed, the higher the stakes get, until ultimately the government is removed by force, or the population is repressed by force. [Note: the latter is better for profits]
Getting back to the OP - can we agree, even if just for the sake of argument, that there is something wrong with a "democracy" where the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing? It seems counterintuitive that people would vote for a system in which they are disempowered and impoverished - but.. that is what is happening. Since neither party addresses these problems, preferring to profit from the status quo, these problems can't be rectified at the ballot box.
So the "Occupy" protests are not over nothing. They are not just a bunch of anarchists causing trouble, or students slacking off, or privileged mac toting posers posing. There is a multitude of individuals, groups and agendas, but at its root is it a legitimate expression of the corrective mechanism essential to democracy.
Exactly how to bring about the desired changes, or even if that is possible, is the heart of the OWS debate. The stakes are already pretty high.
| Quote: |
| If that fails, then nonviolent protest or strikes or secession. |
I think you hit the nail on the head there. The system effectively relies on our consent, so a large enough group of people who stand up and say, "Enough," and simply choose to not participate or do something else, has incredible power. That is most effective way of keeping a democracy healthy.
Violence delegitimizes protest, obscures the message, entrenches the opposition and, incidentally, increases their funding. This defeats the protest.
This creates an incentive for those targeted by the protest to instigate violence to defeat its aims, and those anticipating long term resistance to democratic pressure to create conditions conducive to violence, for example by militarizing the police, police-ifying the military, investing in crowd control technology and citizen internment camps, and getting Israeli specialists to train the police in the latest anti-untermensch techniques.
I just mention that so you'll keep in mind that the next time you see reports about violence at a protest you won't tar all the protesters with the same brush. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
Voting is insufficient, given the power of special interests. America needs some Constitutional changes. That's the mechanism I want employed. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wintermute,
I liked your last post. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
Voting is insufficient, given the power of special interests. America needs some Constitutional changes. That's the mechanism I want employed. |
So if a significant majority of people voted against the wishes of the special interests, it wouldn't be sufficient? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
Voting is insufficient, given the power of special interests. America needs some Constitutional changes. That's the mechanism I want employed. |
So if a significant majority of people voted against the wishes of the special interests, it wouldn't be sufficient? |
Their choice is Democrat or Republican. Which vote cast wouldn't be captured by special interests? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
Voting is insufficient, given the power of special interests. America needs some Constitutional changes. That's the mechanism I want employed. |
So if a significant majority of people voted against the wishes of the special interests, it wouldn't be sufficient? |
Their choice is Democrat or Republican. Which vote cast wouldn't be captured by special interests? |
Independent (like the NAIP for example...only an example if you don't like it)
If enough people voted for that to form a significant voting bloc...there'd be a few politicians angling for that...in fact said party has a large number of candidates already or so they claim).
If people continue to vote for one of the two main parties...they get what they deserve. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
Voting is insufficient, given the power of special interests. America needs some Constitutional changes. That's the mechanism I want employed. |
So if a significant majority of people voted against the wishes of the special interests, it wouldn't be sufficient? |
Their choice is Democrat or Republican. Which vote cast wouldn't be captured by special interests? |
Independent (like the NAIP for example...only an example if you don't like it)
If enough people voted for that to form a significant voting bloc...there'd be a few politicians angling for that...in fact said party has a large number of candidates already or so they claim).
If people continue to vote for one of the two main parties...they get what they deserve. |
Ha ha. Okay. You're not American. So you know the electoral college? It makes voting independent on the Federal level fruitless. |
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brickabrack
Joined: 17 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yah, this voting thing is NOT the answer.
Not the way you seem to say it is.
Overthrow with your dollars.
Someone up there ^^^^ said it.
'Americans deserve the govt they got' (paraphrasing)
I agree.
This
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211,0,72624,full.story
plus This Food Safety Bill HR 875
Could mean more of THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3keUTEwev-o&feature=player_embedded
Before you go citing law, realize that broad language
can encompass any intent, whatsoever. We've seen
it time and time again. Despite the facetiousness of my
connections, these are very serious matters.
"Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people."
~ Henry Kissinger, 1970
Last edited by brickabrack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Ha ha. Okay. You're not American. So you know the electoral college? It makes voting independent on the Federal level fruitless. |
This reminds me of the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror VII, where they parody the clinton-dole elections. When both candidates are revealed before the election to be aliens in disguise, a man threatens to vote for a third party. "Go on," they laugh. "Throw your vote away!" |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As these new numbers come out, things seem closer and closer to the bleak days and years of the Great Depression. At least so far, food stamps and unemployment, etc. are smoothing over the worst of the suffering. But the situation is shredding our view of American society and the American Dream. There is talk of status anxiety, and with good reason.
In 1958, for example, if someone lost his job he had the reasonable hope of finding another one, or if he found himself on the street he could plausibly be at fault. These days, if one in three are either working full time and still teetering on the edge of poverty, or is that unlucky 4 in 5 who applies and fails to land a job, then the society has failed him/her. At what point do you withdraw your consent to be governed by that system? |
I think this idea is worth pursuing.
Steelrails - do you agree that in a democracy, there exists in theory a mechanism by which the public can remove a disobedient government from power? How do you imagine this mechanism working? |
Though I am not Steelrails I'll take a stab at this. We have (and not just in theory) a mechanism to remove a government from power. It's called voting. |
Voting is insufficient, given the power of special interests. America needs some Constitutional changes. That's the mechanism I want employed. |
So if a significant majority of people voted against the wishes of the special interests, it wouldn't be sufficient? |
Their choice is Democrat or Republican. Which vote cast wouldn't be captured by special interests? |
Independent (like the NAIP for example...only an example if you don't like it)
If enough people voted for that to form a significant voting bloc...there'd be a few politicians angling for that...in fact said party has a large number of candidates already or so they claim).
If people continue to vote for one of the two main parties...they get what they deserve. |
Ha ha. Okay. You're not American. So you know the electoral college? It makes voting independent on the Federal level fruitless. |
But the electors have to get elected. Any electors who don't carry out their promises (like promising to vote for a 3rd party) should not get voted for again.
It would be easy to fix...if enough people cared. |
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