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Pa Jan Jo A Hamnida
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Location: Not Korea
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Damn!! I always thought it inevitable, but I hoped against hope. Still seems a shock.
What a man!! A braveheart!! And what great service to mankind!!
I can't see how his shoes will ever be filled. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I looked him up on Google about 3 or 4 days ago to see how he was making out since it seemed his health was deteriorating, cancelling talks throughout the year.
God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything - check it out if you're interested in this kind of debate. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to see a talk entitled
"Humans were still messing the world up and fighting amongst themselves before they even believed in God."
I'm not religious, still, none of us can really argue with another's subjective experience.
Intellectually he kind of boxed himself into a narrow corner. Anyway, just my opinion. May he rest in peace. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| none of us can really argue with another's subjective experience. |
i think you can if the other person's subjective experience leads them to make claims that are contradictory to logic and reality.
personally, i disliked hitchens' takes on religion. i felt like he always took the easy way out by mostly quoting scripture. i prefer the more philosophical and scientific bents of guys like dawkins and dennett. that said, hitchens remains the BEST essayist i've ever read. |
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Some of the Mothers Said
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:14 am Post subject: |
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The quote from the article is not from Hitchens, but from his North Korean minder Mr. Chae. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Obviously.
Hitchens is (well was) a great writer. I'm a huge fan.
And I really want to read the book referenced in the article: The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters. |
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ricochet
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Location: carpetbagging...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| goodbye. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
I'm not religious, still, none of us can really argue with another's subjective experience. |
Sure we can. We can and we should. Especially if it's a farfetched supernatural claim. If someone says, "Some magic gnomes came to me one night and told me that if I believe in them, everything will be fine in my life." You couldn't argue with that?
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Intellectually he kind of boxed himself into a narrow corner. |
How so? He held varied stances on all sorts of topics. I didn't agree with everything he said, but intellectually speaking, he was the man. Eloquent yet tough and smart, and entertaining to read and watch. And he could quote scripture with the best of them, with a refreshing interpretation of it that really got under religious peoples' skin because it challenged their dogma. He didn't sugar coat anything. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
I'm not religious, still, none of us can really argue with another's subjective experience. |
Sure we can. We can and we should. Especially if it's a farfetched supernatural claim. If someone says, "Some magic gnomes came to me one night and told me that if I believe in them, everything will be fine in my life." You couldn't argue with that?
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Intellectually he kind of boxed himself into a narrow corner. |
How so? He held varied stances on all sorts of topics. I didn't agree with everything he said, but intellectually speaking, he was the man. Eloquent yet tough and smart, and entertaining to read and watch. And he could quote scripture with the best of them, with a refreshing interpretation of it that really got under religious peoples' skin because it challenged their dogma. He didn't sugar coat anything. |
If a magic gnome speaks to someone and they believe it is it your job to prove them wrong? Leave people alone and let them think, or believe how they want. I've never understood Atheist that were so hell bent on proving Christians wrong. If you don't believe then why try to convince people it doesn't exist? I don't believe in ghosts but I don't waste my breath convincing people that do that they are not real.
Hitchins was a great thinker and a excellent writer but people's worship of him almost made him their god. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Well it is pretty frightening that in most modern countries, the majority will still only elect a leader who believes in primitive explanations of the universe and an outdated moral code. |
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Chris.Quigley
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Location: Belfast. N Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I am a Christian -
I am thankful for Hitchens and saddened to hear about his death. He challenged me and I learned a lot about my own faith and what faith really is because of him. Although, I doubt that was his intention. I guess he gets to find out now (or not find out  ) what the truth is. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
I'm not religious, still, none of us can really argue with another's subjective experience. |
Sure we can. We can and we should. Especially if it's a farfetched supernatural claim. If someone says, "Some magic gnomes came to me one night and told me that if I believe in them, everything will be fine in my life." You couldn't argue with that?
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Intellectually he kind of boxed himself into a narrow corner. |
How so? He held varied stances on all sorts of topics. I didn't agree with everything he said, but intellectually speaking, he was the man. Eloquent yet tough and smart, and entertaining to read and watch. And he could quote scripture with the best of them, with a refreshing interpretation of it that really got under religious peoples' skin because it challenged their dogma. He didn't sugar coat anything. |
Leave people alone and let them think, or believe how they want. |
That sounds like a command. If they start the discussion by asserting that they believe in magic gnomes, then I'll respond however I want to. Thanks.
They are asserting a version of reality, if I want to argue with it I will, just as I would expect them to argue with my version of reality if I asserted it to them first.
If you say you don't believe in a god, the religious will be arguing with you almost immediately, so why can't it work the other way round? Sounds like a double standard.
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
I've never understood Atheist that were so hell bent on proving Christians wrong.
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Most atheists aren't hell bent on proving anything, it's simply a LACK of a belief in a god. As such, it's often the religious who start the discussions by asserting that others should believe like they do, usually along with claims that they had a subjective experience and they want you to believe it too.
Nope, not buying it and I'll argue about it if I want to. And they are free to stop the discussion anytime and try to see if someone else will listen to their stories with a straight face.
How often do you see atheist groups on street corners or going door to door to spread the "truth" about their beliefs (or lack of) and their interpretation of what they think will happen to you if you don't believe like they do?
When atheist groups start getting tax exemptions and sending their troops door to door around the world trying to convert people, then you'll have more of an argument.
Ultimately, anyone CAN believe (or not believe) anything they want. That's their business of course. It's the point at which they begin to assert the belief to others that the discussion begins, argument or not. |
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