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chrisinkorea2011
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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 Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| tardisrider wrote: |
| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
they may be reported by news and such, but who's to say that the news isnt manipulated and what not? regardless such things like this having a small number (in what could be a controlled environment or survey) being used as a representation of a country is hogwash |
Actually, that number (n>1000) would generally be considered large enough to establish a normative distribution (when applicable) and define statistical parameters to a 95% confidence level (we'd also need margins of error) within the sample--assuming unbiased sampling. Of course, none of that matters if the sample is biased (for example, if you only asked people who were under 25, their answers might not be representative of the entire population) or if the study has other methodological problems.
That being said, I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I'm just a stats nerd. But yeah, the sample size is big enough--it's the other things you have to be concerned about.
Respected scientific pollsters (like Gallup, for instance) often use samples of around that size--larger sample sizes are more expensive but not necessarily much more accurate, so it's considered a fair trade off. Again, those polls are generally well-done because the people who conduct and analyze them really, really know what they are doing. |
Yeah Im sure they are done well, and im not calling them stupid or anything, i just feel that a small size (1000) of a big country is misrepresented. lol |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Year end parties are awesome. I love them.
Kalbi, soju and beer. Yea!  |
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tardisrider
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
Yeah Im sure they are done well, and im not calling them stupid or anything, i just feel that a small size (1000) of a big country is misrepresented. lol |
Well, actually, you are wrong--1000 people is plenty IF the sample is truly random within the given population.
You should be far more skeptical of the methodology and other statistical markers than you should be of the sample size when the sample size is this large. Most news reports (including the one in the OP) quote percentages and averages, but don't give other information necessary to understand "the big picture." Sometimes people use stats to intentionally mislead, but more often (I think) people just don't really understand enough about statistics to interpret them properly.
Again, I don't know (or care, really) about the particular article in question, I'm just giving a very brief overview of one of the important aspects of statistical sampling. Don't take my word for it, look up some info on statistics and sampling if you're curious. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
| You need to concentrate harder young jedi. if you really knew your stuff you would find that he was following me after I complained about bones in fish. And anyway my first post in this thread questioned his representing his own subjective opinion as objective facts in a rational and logical manner. If you are going to get engaged in public grandstanding and defamation you might as well do so more carefully. |
Oh, no, I saw all that. I don't think it needs to spill out all over the place.
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| But really....REALLY....my confusion comes from your endless need to scour the boards of an ESL site just to arrogantly dismiss any perceived negative comments on this country. Because I don't think it has anything to do with Korea. I think it has something to do with you wanting...needing to prove to everyone else that you are better than them. So occassionally I like to come here and bother you and see what you have to say about, I dunno, apple pie. Then I listen to your completely illogical rant about how other filthy foreigners don't understand apple pie like you understand apple pie because you learned about it from a Korean, and no one else understands Koreans like you. And then I laugh and write a response to get you to say more ridiculous things and laugh some more. I really hope you have a great holiday season, man. I really do mean that. I hope you find some people in real life who are as wise as you so you don't have to deal with us low-lifes anymore. It must be exhausting. That's my 2012 wish for you. |
I don't think TUM is that bad. My thing is his insistence on facts and hard data and dismissal of anecdotes and experiences, even though when he occasionally provides one of his own it's pretty clear that he isn't wearing rose-colored glasses like some would believe. While others are groaning on here or to friends about a bad experience, he's resolving it. His recent story about not being able to pay a bill at a convenience store is a patent example. He took a very common North American approach by asking to speak with a higher-ranking employee and took care of the issue.
And I'd say that's why the "apologists" get so much flak on here. They try not to reveal too much about their personal lives, just like anyone else, and then people start assuming that they somehow do not experience or even just gloss over the very same bad situations that so many others moan about and turn into comments on how backwards Korean society appears to be. |
Nope. UM said that a study showing 60% of Koreans don't like year end parties proves that the thought of the soju-loving adjoshi brute isn't true. Let's look at that point FACTUALLY.
1) That leaves 40% of the populations who enjoys these parties. I have no idea about the demographics of this survey, but 40% is still a very large portion of the population. An analogy: 60% of Canadians say they only speak English. Ha! I guess that ruins your image of a French speaking Canadian man! Well, men make up 50% of the population so for all we know from that one statistic almost all of them speak French (similarly, for all we know almost all males who answered the Korean question liked the party).
2) Nothing in the survey leads to a conclusion that adult men don't like to drink. It suggests that a slight majority of Koreans don't enjoy the year end party. Some of those people said they'd rather be doing something else. Again, those activities don't necessarily prohibit alcohol.
3) UM made up a fictional stereotype (the adjoshi-hating ESL teacher) in order to dismiss it. How is this factual? It's completely anecdotal. You say that people expect these apologists to have the same experience the rest of us have, yet you expect us to take UM's word for the stereotype he introduced. This basically outlines the apologist's defence. Their experiences are the only ones that count, more than that; their experiences are FACT. Everyone else is just making things up.
4) UM, along with other apologists on this site often deny obvious truths about Korea to fit their narrow view of what is correct. UM denies the existence of a drinking culture in Korea. I could list studies, I could link articles, I could do my own scientific survey right now, but anyone who has been in this country for 10 minutes knows about it. And it wouldn't matter anyway, because these apologists would argue against water being wet if it suited their skewed world view. Like I said, it has nothing to do with Korea actually. It has everything to do with a superiority complex and the inability to admit lack of knowledge, or worse, error.
The bottom line is you can either live in reality or be on apologist on this site. If you choose reality you will be aware of both good and bad things in Korea just like everywhere else. If you choose to spend hours scouring a website to illogically contradict any perceived negative stance on the country of Korea then, well, that's your reality. I have no problems with optimists, I just have a problem with people who deny it's raining, and use semantics to prove that point, just to pretend that they're better at understanding weather than the rest of us. You have opinions. I have opinions. And that's fine. The problem comes when you think your opinions are fact and my facts are opinions.
Especially when so many of the people have been here much longer, have much more experience with Korea and Koreans and are infinitely more honest. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot to add:
HAPPY HOLIDAYS! Peace on Earth, Goodwill...and so forth. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| The bottom line is you can either live in reality or be on apologist on this site. If you choose reality you will be aware of both good and bad things in Korea just like everywhere else. If you choose to spend hours scouring a website to illogically contradict any perceived negative stance on the country of Korea then, well, that's your reality. |
I can't really bring myself to care if someone does that.
I will agree with you on one point. I don't like how "apologists" have a habit of blanket-criticizing posters on this site.
I'm also not a big fan of the crux of the argument being centered around the language used. The meat of a disagreement is often because a poster said "the majority of Koreans" rather than "a number of Koreans" or something along those lines. I'm sorry but, at the end of the day, this is just a crappy message board with a bunch of lazy crap posted all over it. It strikes me as pedantic.
I generally agree completely with the opinions you present in your posts, so don't think I'm trying to have a go at you or anything. Just procrastinating at work.  |
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chrisinkorea2011
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| tardisrider wrote: |
| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
Yeah Im sure they are done well, and im not calling them stupid or anything, i just feel that a small size (1000) of a big country is misrepresented. lol |
Well, actually, you are wrong--1000 people is plenty IF the sample is truly random within the given population.
You should be far more skeptical of the methodology and other statistical markers than you should be of the sample size when the sample size is this large. Most news reports (including the one in the OP) quote percentages and averages, but don't give other information necessary to understand "the big picture." Sometimes people use stats to intentionally mislead, but more often (I think) people just don't really understand enough about statistics to interpret them properly.
Again, I don't know (or care, really) about the particular article in question, I'm just giving a very brief overview of one of the important aspects of statistical sampling. Don't take my word for it, look up some info on statistics and sampling if you're curious. |
IF, and being in this case you dont really know becuz certain things werent mentioned as in age groups etc. and sorry but 1000 is NOT big enough even if randomly picked. A miniscular portion of a group does NOT represent the entire group. Too many believe that is the notion when in actuality it isnt. Thats like saying you have 1000 people then a random group of 100 is picked and out of those 100, 25 are A and 75 are B. So because 25 are A, then they represent the 1000 people? Illogical. I dont need to look up statistics nor am I curious, i took that class in college too. but just because it says one thing, doesnt mean its infact 100% right. |
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jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: re |
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Urban Myth- Take a little tour through your previous posts and you can find dozens of times where you insulted someone or had some rude, condescending comment. And you are calling me a troll????? Look in the mirror and go back and hide behind your computer.
Let's see...generalizing that all foreigners who dislike Korea are just bashing and generalizing. Telling one guy that he is ignorant of basic statistics because he doesn't agree with your assesment of American taxes/economics . Insulting another poster who just can't seem to get 'decade old Korean facts' right like only you, the almighty Urban Myth, can and do day after day. Turning a discussion about work parties into your anti-Korean bashing complaint. Claiming one poster said that 'the whole point of inviting us over here to teach English to their children is to make you feel bad/inferior' and then claiming that this was another 'Korean bashing' argument. How about the time when you insulted someone for a typo on the word 'foreigners'? And what the hell are 'troll buckets'?
I only got to page 3 out of 821 when I did the search (Search found 12306 matches). I wonder how many countless times you have scoured through threads just to insult someone else or disprove some small part of their argument? And of course you usally like to throw in some side comment just to be rude. And you are calling ME a troll? ??? You have to love this day and age where people like you can hide behind your computer and throw off rude and insulting comments. You should compile a list of all your arguments and hold a public seminar. Show your face in public instead of bashing others and then running behind mommy's legs. But alas, you will just hide on Daves and continue to insult other foreigners.
Sorry for hijacking this thread. I'm just so sick of this guy. Can't help but be disgusted by people who insult others...especially when they are hiding behind their computer.
The facts of this thread are obvious. It is NOT about bashing middle-age Korean men. It's about people who would rather do something else than go to holiday parties. It's not always about the drunk ajosshi. I'm sure it has to do with breaking family time, being around people you see all day long, not even being a drinker in the first place, and having to deal with bosses outside of work. |
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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
IF, and being in this case you dont really know becuz certain things werent mentioned as in age groups etc. and sorry but 1000 is NOT big enough even if randomly picked. A miniscular portion of a group does NOT represent the entire group. Too many believe that is the notion when in actuality it isnt. Thats like saying you have 1000 people then a random group of 100 is picked and out of those 100, 25 are A and 75 are B. So because 25 are A, then they represent the 1000 people? Illogical. I dont need to look up statistics nor am I curious, i took that class in college too. but just because it says one thing, doesnt mean its infact 100% right. |
I think you do, you should be, and you should have paid more attention, respectively 
| Quote: |
| doesnt mean its infact 100% right. |
No - it doesn't have to be or claim to be. It is an approximation. The question is, "Is it an accurate approximation?"
| Quote: |
| Thats like saying you have 1000 people then a random group of 100 is picked and out of those 100, 25 are A and 75 are B. So because 25 are A, then they represent the 1000 people? Illogical. |
"because 25 are A, they represent 250 of the 1000, or 25%."
or even "because 25 are A, they represent 1,500,000,000 of the 6,000,000,000"
Is it accurate? Well, better leave that to people like tardisrider, who are curious enough to actually learn the stuff. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| The bottom line is you can either live in reality or be on apologist on this site. If you choose reality you will be aware of both good and bad things in Korea just like everywhere else. If you choose to spend hours scouring a website to illogically contradict any perceived negative stance on the country of Korea then, well, that's your reality. |
I can't really bring myself to care if someone does that.
I will agree with you on one point. I don't like how "apologists" have a habit of blanket-criticizing posters on this site.
I'm also not a big fan of the crux of the argument being centered around the language used. The meat of a disagreement is often because a poster said "the majority of Koreans" rather than "a number of Koreans" or something along those lines. I'm sorry but, at the end of the day, this is just a crappy message board with a bunch of lazy crap posted all over it. It strikes me as pedantic.
I generally agree completely with the opinions you present in your posts, so don't think I'm trying to have a go at you or anything. Just procrastinating at work. |
UM's quote from page 1 was:
| Quote: |
| Kinda of ruins the image of the typical Korean adjushi (so beloved on Dave's) as a soju-loving brute, doesn't it? |
No "I think" or other subjective language there. I wouldn't be having a go at him if there wasn't history. It's not like I'm picking on one random word here. It's been years.
Having said that, I kind of hate what I've created here. jeronimoski provides an accurate take down of UM, but I shudder from it. It's sort of like squashing a spider on the wall. He was doing his thing, he was probably more scared of me than I was of him. Oh god! What if he had kids?! I'm the bad guy in a Pixar film!
Like I said, I like bothering UM because he deserves it. But since I started calling him on the personal insults he's slowed them down (at least directed at me). And upon his advice I did read a few of the threads where he advises newbies on contracts. He's not completely unreasonable. I just like to bother him like an older brother who watches Fox News and Two and half men. I'm not going to change his crooked world view, but I hope we can each get some laughs out of teasing each other and feel better/worse about ourselves when we walk away.
Totally derailed the thread. The point is to get out and get loaded with co-wokers, right? 100% of me support that. |
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tardisrider
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
IF, and being in this case you dont really know becuz certain things werent mentioned as in age groups etc. and sorry but 1000 is NOT big enough even if randomly picked. A miniscular portion of a group does NOT represent the entire group. Too many believe that is the notion when in actuality it isnt. Thats like saying you have 1000 people then a random group of 100 is picked and out of those 100, 25 are A and 75 are B. So because 25 are A, then they represent the 1000 people? Illogical. I dont need to look up statistics nor am I curious, i took that class in college too. but just because it says one thing, doesnt mean its infact 100% right. |
Okay, just a few points.
First, you're absolutely correct that "just because it says one thing doesn't mean it's in fact 100% right." That's why margins of error and confidence levels are important. If a stat says something like "86% percent, +4% to a confidence level of 95%" it means that the statistician has made calculations which have convinced her that 95 times out of a hundred, a sample from the population will yield results between 82% (86-4) and 90% (86+4). There is no claim that it is 100% accurate. It is an estimate.
Second, I went back and looked at the article in question. The first thing I notice is that the headline says "Most South Koreans" but the text of the article says "A majority of office workers". "South Koreans" and "office workers (in South Korea)" are very different groups. Also, the article says that the survey was done by "recruitment portal Job Korea". The article doesn't say how the sample was chosen, but it does make me wonder if Job Korea only chose participants from its own database. That would further the bias in the sampling: you're not getting a representative sample of "all Koreans" or even of "all office workers in Korea" but rather a representative sample of "people who have signed up with Job Korea". And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it is represented honestly.
Given that, chrisinkorea2011 is absolutely correct that this study is not generalizable to the entire Korean population.
Finally, the article has no information on the questions that were asked. For example, the article says "Some 55.6 percent took exception to gatherings featuring endless rounds of drinking." Was it a yes or no question? Or maybe it was a Likert type scale, where respondents choose from a spectrum of possible answers indicating their level of agreement with a statement or the intensity of their feeling. "Dread" is a heavy word--if you ask me how I feel about a subject, there's a big difference between me saying "I'm a little nervous about X" and "I dread X". Both may indicate a "negative attitude" toward X, but lumping them together without distinction doesn't paint the most detailed picture possible.
To sum up, there are many potential problems with this survey, but sample size itself isn't one. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Damn fine post tardisrider...as was your other one on this topic.
A pleasure to read.
My hat is off to you...wait...I don't wear a hat.
ok...how about a knowing wink of approval in your general direction. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| tardisrider wrote: |
| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
IF, and being in this case you dont really know becuz certain things werent mentioned as in age groups etc. and sorry but 1000 is NOT big enough even if randomly picked. A miniscular portion of a group does NOT represent the entire group. Too many believe that is the notion when in actuality it isnt. Thats like saying you have 1000 people then a random group of 100 is picked and out of those 100, 25 are A and 75 are B. So because 25 are A, then they represent the 1000 people? Illogical. I dont need to look up statistics nor am I curious, i took that class in college too. but just because it says one thing, doesnt mean its infact 100% right. |
Okay, just a few points.
First, you're absolutely correct that "just because it says one thing doesn't mean it's in fact 100% right." That's why margins of error and confidence levels are important. If a stat says something like "86% percent, +4% to a confidence level of 95%" it means that the statistician has made calculations which have convinced her that 95 times out of a hundred, a sample from the population will yield results between 82% (86-4) and 90% (86+4). There is no claim that it is 100% accurate. It is an estimate. |
I know you're trying to keep it simple for chrisinkorea, but to be a bit more rigorous it means the process used to create the confidence interval (in this particular instance, 82-90) will contain the true population value 95% of the time.
| Quote: |
Second, I went back and looked at the article in question. The first thing I notice is that the headline says "Most South Koreans" but the text of the article says "A majority of office workers". "South Koreans" and "office workers (in South Korea)" are very different groups. Also, the article says that the survey was done by "recruitment portal Job Korea". The article doesn't say how the sample was chosen, but it does make me wonder if Job Korea only chose participants from its own database. That would further the bias in the sampling: you're not getting a representative sample of "all Koreans" or even of "all office workers in Korea" but rather a representative sample of "people who have signed up with Job Korea". And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it is represented honestly.
Given that, chrisinkorea2011 is absolutely correct that this study is not generalizable to the entire Korean population.
Finally, the article has no information on the questions that were asked. For example, the article says "Some 55.6 percent took exception to gatherings featuring endless rounds of drinking." Was it a yes or no question? Or maybe it was a Likert type scale, where respondents choose from a spectrum of possible answers indicating their level of agreement with a statement or the intensity of their feeling. "Dread" is a heavy word--if you ask me how I feel about a subject, there's a big difference between me saying "I'm a little nervous about X" and "I dread X". Both may indicate a "negative attitude" toward X, but lumping them together without distinction doesn't paint the most detailed picture possible.
To sum up, there are many potential problems with this survey, but sample size itself isn't one. |
Absolutely agree. Random sampling is a very, very difficult process, about which hundreds of academic articles have been published. Most surveys suffer from significant bias problems, but thanks to statistical methods (at the heart of which we have the Central Limit Theorem - I'll link to that for Chris' benefit - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem ), fortunately having relatively small sample sizes doesn't cause too many headaches. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
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Nope. UM said that a study showing 60% of Koreans don't like year end parties proves that the thought of the soju-loving adjoshi brute isn't true. Let's look at that point FACTUALLY.
3) UM made up a fictional stereotype (the adjoshi-hating ESL teacher) in order to dismiss it. How is this factual? It's completely anecdotal. You say that people expect these apologists to have the same experience the rest of us have, yet you expect us to take UM's word for the stereotype he introduced. This basically outlines the apologist's defence. Their experiences are the only ones that count, more than that; their experiences are FACT. Everyone else is just making things up.
4) UM, along with other apologists on this site often deny obvious truths about Korea to fit their narrow view of what is correct. UM denies the existence of a drinking culture in Korea. I could list studies, I could link articles, I could do my own scientific survey right now, but anyone who has been in this country for 10 minutes knows about it. And it wouldn't matter anyway, because these apologists would argue against water being wet if it suited their skewed world view. Like I said, it has nothing to do with Korea actually. It has everything to do with a superiority complex and the inability to admit lack of knowledge, or worse, error.
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First of all that was not what I said. Read correctly. "kind of ruins the image" does not amount to "prove'.
Secondly if you deny that there are adjeshi or Korean hating ESL teachers here you are the one living in denial...would you like me to post some actual quotes from actual posters here (Bad Pegge or psychedelic should do)?
Also I have never denied the existence of a drinking culture here. That is completely untrue. Talk about being honest...
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: re |
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| jeronimoski wrote: |
| Urban Myth- Take a little tour through your previous posts and you can find dozens of times where you insulted someone or had some rude, condescending comment. . |
Take that little tour and you will find that I am never the first to start something (unless there have been some previous history). And yes you are trolling. You entered this thread solely to make a personal attack on me unprovoked. That's trolling to incite a flame war.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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