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bobbyhanlon
Joined: 09 Nov 2003
Location: 서울
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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| japan should grovel. reason why? china's power is of course rising, and currently, japan does not have a single friend in the region. if the us declines in power in the pacific, japan will be horribly exposed. japan should at least try and make nice with korea for its own good... south korea, being a wealthy democracy, would be the best natural partner for them if history could be overcome. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
Japan should officially apologise
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They have!
I posted several examples on this thread how they have.
| Quote: |
| Past Japanese administrations have acknowledged the plight of these women. Abe's predecessor, Junichiro Koizumi, issued a letter in 2001 to express remorse for the "grave affront to the honour and dignity of large numbers of women." |
| Quote: |
A similar statement in 1993, by Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono, also offered an apology for Japan's role in wartime brothels, but compensation claims continued to be rejected.
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http://www.globalnews.ca/comfort+women+protest/6442542364/story.html
| Quote: |
On January 17, 1992, Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea. |
| Quote: |
| The Government study has revealed that in many cases they were recruited against their own will through coaxing and coercion". The government of Japan "sincerely apologize[d] and [expressed its] remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable psychological wounds". In the statement, the government of Japan expressed its "firm determination never to repeat the same mistake and that they would engrave such issue through the study and teaching of history".[35] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#Kono_statement
So Japan has apologized.
| The Floating World wrote: |
| pay recompensation |
Legally speaking they have.
The 1962 agreement stated:
| Quote: |
In January, declassified dossiers relating to the Korea-Japan Normalization Treaty of 1965 opened the first old wound. It was
the first disclosure to the Korean public;[b] it revealed that Seoul demanded US$364 million compensation for individuals who died, were injured or used as laborers during Japan's 35-year occupation on the Korean peninsula.[/b] Instead, the South Korean government received $800 million, in a combination of grants and low-interest loans, as reparations from Japan.
South Korean dictator Park Chung-hee agreed that after this payment, South Korean citizens would give up their right to make individual claims against the Japanese government. What the declassified documents revealed was that Park only paid out about 2.56 billion won ($251 million) to families killed by the Japanese and 6.6 billion won to owners of destroyed property. None of the thousands of South Koreans conscripted into the Japanese military and labor workforce received compensation.
The remaining money was earmarked for nation-building construction projects. Park's often-criticized vision of linking Seoul and Busan in the south by expressway became a reality. He poured money into developing infrastructure and heavy industry, especially his favored state-owned business, Pohang Iron & Steel, which later became Posco, one of the world's top steelmakers. |
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/GL23Dg02.html
The South Korean government at the time choose not to give this money to the comfort women.
It's like a multi-action lawsuite where certain actors gain and others loose out.
But Japan has already made reparations. Why can't people see that? |
Have you read the link I talked about on page 2?
Here is a quote:
"1. Japan already apologized for Comfort Women.
This statement is only technically true, in a sense that the Japanese government mouthed the words of apology. For example, in 1993, in Kono Statement, Japanese government acknowledged that Imperial Japanese military was directly and indirectly involved in recruiting Comfort Women through coercion and trickery. There are several other cases in which Japanese Prime Ministers issued an apology regarding Comfort Women.
However, the point of an apology is to show a genuine change of heart and contrition. An apology is not a license for one to turn around and spit in the face of the person to whom the apology was just issued. An apology is not a credit in the moral bank account, so that one can later make a withdrawal and commit more immoral deeds. Simply mouthing the words and going through the motions are clearly inadequate for anyone with a functional moral compass. In that sense, there are several of reasons to consider the Japanese apologies to be inadequate:
a. Each apology was carefully worded to avoid any legal liability
If you did something bad, you should be ready to accept all consequences, moral and legal. You have to say the right thing and do the right thing also. If you say the right things but fail to do the right things, the words are meaningless and hollow. That is how each one of Japan's apologies on Comfort Women has been structured. Reading carefully, most of the apologies usually say: "We are sorry this bad thing happened to you," without discussing that it was the Imperial Japan that caused that bad thing. Each one of Japan's apologies regarding Comfort Women was designed for Japan to evade legal responsibility while attempting to absolve its moral responsibility. But morality does not work that way. Even a child would know this.
b. Subsequent Japanese administrations sought to whitewash the Comfort Women issue
Japan's apologies -- particularly those made in the 1990s, which had greater specificity about its direct responsibility -- was not a result of a nationwide reflection and contrition by Japan. It was issued by an unusually liberal Japanese government, which had a tenuous hold on power. When the conservative block of the Liberal Democratic Party came back in power, the Japanese government quickly displayed the insincerity of its stance on the Comfort Women issue.
In 2007, a group of 120 LDP members sought to water down Kono Statement. Nakayama Nariaki, the leader of that group, said: "Some say it is useful to compare the brothels to college cafeterias run by private companies, who recruit their own staff, procure foodstuffs and set prices."
Also in 2007, LDP Prime Minister Abe Shinzo (a grandson of a man suspected to be a class-A war criminal, Kishi Nobusuke,) denied that the Imperial Japanese military recruited Comfort Women. Abe only backed off after a stern warning from the U.S. ambassador. Another former Prime Minister, Nakasone Yasuhiro, also denied that the Comfort Women were forcibly recruited. Further, former education minister Nariaki Nakayama declared he was proud that the LDP had succeeded in getting references to "wartime sex slaves" struck from most authorized history texts for junior high schools. Nakayama further said: "It could be said that the occupation was something they could have pride in, given their existence soothed distraught feelings of men in the battlefield and provided a certain respite and order.""
Link to the blog post: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/12/1000th-wednesday-protest-and-lies-about.html |
Ridiculous!
So they apologised, but didn't do it properly.
I have a feeling that no matter what Japan does, certain actors will always hold it over them.
Always.....it's a loose loose situation. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
Japan should officially apologise
|
They have!
I posted several examples on this thread how they have.
| Quote: |
| Past Japanese administrations have acknowledged the plight of these women. Abe's predecessor, Junichiro Koizumi, issued a letter in 2001 to express remorse for the "grave affront to the honour and dignity of large numbers of women." |
| Quote: |
A similar statement in 1993, by Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono, also offered an apology for Japan's role in wartime brothels, but compensation claims continued to be rejected.
|
http://www.globalnews.ca/comfort+women+protest/6442542364/story.html
| Quote: |
On January 17, 1992, Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea. |
| Quote: |
| The Government study has revealed that in many cases they were recruited against their own will through coaxing and coercion". The government of Japan "sincerely apologize[d] and [expressed its] remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable psychological wounds". In the statement, the government of Japan expressed its "firm determination never to repeat the same mistake and that they would engrave such issue through the study and teaching of history".[35] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#Kono_statement
So Japan has apologized.
| The Floating World wrote: |
| pay recompensation |
Legally speaking they have.
The 1962 agreement stated:
| Quote: |
In January, declassified dossiers relating to the Korea-Japan Normalization Treaty of 1965 opened the first old wound. It was
the first disclosure to the Korean public;[b] it revealed that Seoul demanded US$364 million compensation for individuals who died, were injured or used as laborers during Japan's 35-year occupation on the Korean peninsula.[/b] Instead, the South Korean government received $800 million, in a combination of grants and low-interest loans, as reparations from Japan.
South Korean dictator Park Chung-hee agreed that after this payment, South Korean citizens would give up their right to make individual claims against the Japanese government. What the declassified documents revealed was that Park only paid out about 2.56 billion won ($251 million) to families killed by the Japanese and 6.6 billion won to owners of destroyed property. None of the thousands of South Koreans conscripted into the Japanese military and labor workforce received compensation.
The remaining money was earmarked for nation-building construction projects. Park's often-criticized vision of linking Seoul and Busan in the south by expressway became a reality. He poured money into developing infrastructure and heavy industry, especially his favored state-owned business, Pohang Iron & Steel, which later became Posco, one of the world's top steelmakers. |
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/GL23Dg02.html
The South Korean government at the time choose not to give this money to the comfort women.
It's like a multi-action lawsuite where certain actors gain and others loose out.
But Japan has already made reparations. Why can't people see that? |
Have you read the link I talked about on page 2?
Here is a quote:
"1. Japan already apologized for Comfort Women.
This statement is only technically true, in a sense that the Japanese government mouthed the words of apology. For example, in 1993, in Kono Statement, Japanese government acknowledged that Imperial Japanese military was directly and indirectly involved in recruiting Comfort Women through coercion and trickery. There are several other cases in which Japanese Prime Ministers issued an apology regarding Comfort Women.
However, the point of an apology is to show a genuine change of heart and contrition. An apology is not a license for one to turn around and spit in the face of the person to whom the apology was just issued. An apology is not a credit in the moral bank account, so that one can later make a withdrawal and commit more immoral deeds. Simply mouthing the words and going through the motions are clearly inadequate for anyone with a functional moral compass. In that sense, there are several of reasons to consider the Japanese apologies to be inadequate:
a. Each apology was carefully worded to avoid any legal liability
If you did something bad, you should be ready to accept all consequences, moral and legal. You have to say the right thing and do the right thing also. If you say the right things but fail to do the right things, the words are meaningless and hollow. That is how each one of Japan's apologies on Comfort Women has been structured. Reading carefully, most of the apologies usually say: "We are sorry this bad thing happened to you," without discussing that it was the Imperial Japan that caused that bad thing. Each one of Japan's apologies regarding Comfort Women was designed for Japan to evade legal responsibility while attempting to absolve its moral responsibility. But morality does not work that way. Even a child would know this.
b. Subsequent Japanese administrations sought to whitewash the Comfort Women issue
Japan's apologies -- particularly those made in the 1990s, which had greater specificity about its direct responsibility -- was not a result of a nationwide reflection and contrition by Japan. It was issued by an unusually liberal Japanese government, which had a tenuous hold on power. When the conservative block of the Liberal Democratic Party came back in power, the Japanese government quickly displayed the insincerity of its stance on the Comfort Women issue.
In 2007, a group of 120 LDP members sought to water down Kono Statement. Nakayama Nariaki, the leader of that group, said: "Some say it is useful to compare the brothels to college cafeterias run by private companies, who recruit their own staff, procure foodstuffs and set prices."
Also in 2007, LDP Prime Minister Abe Shinzo (a grandson of a man suspected to be a class-A war criminal, Kishi Nobusuke,) denied that the Imperial Japanese military recruited Comfort Women. Abe only backed off after a stern warning from the U.S. ambassador. Another former Prime Minister, Nakasone Yasuhiro, also denied that the Comfort Women were forcibly recruited. Further, former education minister Nariaki Nakayama declared he was proud that the LDP had succeeded in getting references to "wartime sex slaves" struck from most authorized history texts for junior high schools. Nakayama further said: "It could be said that the occupation was something they could have pride in, given their existence soothed distraught feelings of men in the battlefield and provided a certain respite and order.""
Link to the blog post: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/12/1000th-wednesday-protest-and-lies-about.html |
Ridiculous!
So they apologised, but didn't do it properly.
I have a feeling that no matter what Japan does, certain actors will always hold it over them.
Always.....it's a loose loose situation. |
Let's see, the Japanese government continues to offer non-apology apologies to the still-living victims and you're baffled this continues?
Put it this way, this is suicidal Korea and Japan. If they were truly sorry, it wouldn't be done like this.
And where are the prosecutions and tribunals over this?
This from a bunch of people who would pick up a torch and pitchfork over unpaid hagwon overtime...
No matter what Korea's involved in, certain people will hold their being Korean against them.
Who are the "apologists" now? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Great thing they did there for these poor women.
Japan has offered many things but no official apology like the Germans did way back in the 1940s and early 1950s and THAT is the issue. Too bad some people here cannot grasp this and far worse that they would use this thread to push their crap into the discussion as one more "oh shut up already" Korea bash fest.
These women were kidnapped when they were 12, 13 and 14, then they were enslaved and sexually assaulted everyday, beaten and sometimes killed by Japanese soldiers. They deserve a god damn statue and some respect.
That seems pretty damn simple. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Great thing they did there for these poor women.
Japan has offered many things but no official apology like the Germans did way back in the 1940s and early 1950s and THAT is the issue. Too bad some people here cannot grasp this and far worse that they would use this thread to push their crap into the discussion as one more "oh shut up already" Korea bash fest.
These women were kidnapped when they were 12, 13 and 14, then they were enslaved and sexually assaulted everyday, beaten and sometimes killed by Japanese soldiers. They deserve a god damn statue and some respect.
That seems pretty damn simple. |
It also seems simple to stop instigating hate on a different group of Japanese people who are not responsible for their ancestors.
I would rather spend my time enjoying a feast with good Japanese and good Koreans who can put aside their past historical conflicts. It's too bad these women probably haven't looked at people beyond a label.
Are there any other statues in front of an embassy in the world that are associated with crimes? I am trying to find one, I can't. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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[quote="koreatimes"]
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Great thing they did there for these poor women.
Japan has offered many things but no official apology like the Germans did way back in the 1940s and early 1950s and THAT is the issue. Too bad some people here cannot grasp this and far worse that they would use this thread to push their crap into the discussion as one more "oh shut up already" Korea bash fest.
These women were kidnapped when they were 12, 13 and 14, then they were enslaved and sexually assaulted everyday, beaten and sometimes killed by Japanese soldiers. They deserve a god damn statue and some respect.
It also seems simple to stop instigating hate on a different group of Japanese people who are not responsible for their ancestors.
I would rather spend my time enjoying a feast with good Japanese and good Koreans who can put aside their past historical conflicts. It's too bad these women probably haven't looked at people beyond a label.
Are there any other statues in front of an embassy in the world that are associated with crimes? I am trying to find one, I can't. |
No I think you'll have to excuse them. They haven't had a chance to "look past the label" yet. They've been busy reliving years of horrible rape and murder in their nightmares. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: |
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So I've several examples of Japanese apologising at the hughest level, yet people simply brush them off.
I dare you to re-quote the entire quotation of the apology given and tell me the Japanese have not apologised.
These are the facts:
Japan has apologised at the highest levels.
No direct compensation has been offered to the victims.
Nevertheless, South Korea has already acceted reparation for the attrocities commited against them (including forced labor) and agreed that no further legal cases be brought aginst the Japanes as a result. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Great thing they did there for these poor women.
Japan has offered many things but no official apology . |
Jesus Christ! They have made official apologies.
I've posted the examples three times already on this thread. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
On January 17, 1992, Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea. |
| Quote: |
| The Government study has revealed that in many cases they were recruited against their own will through coaxing and coercion". The government of Japan "sincerely apologize[d] and [expressed its] remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable psychological wounds". In the statement, the government of Japan expressed its "firm determination never to repeat the same mistake and that they would engrave such issue through the study and teaching of history".[35] |
|
| Quote: |
In 2007, a group of 120 LDP members sought to water down Kono Statement. Nakayama Nariaki, the leader of that group, said: "Some say it is useful to compare the brothels to college cafeterias run by private companies, who recruit their own staff, procure foodstuffs and set prices."
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[/quote]
So in 1992 Japan offers an apology at the highest levels.
Nothing is accomplished. Let's face it the Korean would never and will never accept any apology.
So 25 years later some hardliners seek to water down an apology after the Koreans continue to refuse anything.
It was wrong, but in a way I can understand their frustrations.
Nobody here on this thread criticising me has gone after my quotes directly.
Nobody has attempted to go after the clear fact posted here.
Japan has made apologies and reparations (albeit not to the comfort womern directly) to South Korea and the government at that time acepted them. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| There are many reasons why people could have issues with Korea or Koreans. However, on this particular issue could the misanthropes give it a rest |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| They've been busy reliving years of horrible rape and murder in their nightmares. |
What does that have to do with the current government in Japan? They are no different than the people running the governments today in Europe, the Americas, or in the Middle East.
The only connection is that they were born in the same country as some bad people.
THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!! The people in the government are not the SAME as they were before.
You can't comprehend that. These women have a right to deal with their pain, but not at the expense of innocent people. |
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NohopeSeriously
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Let's not forget the fact that the Japanese Diet (aka parliament) is often making ridiculous statements against Korea because some high-profile South Korean government officials and NGOs often make close affiliation with some Japanese NGOs and religious groups.
To relate with the Comfort Women issue my church member said it like this. Many Japanese NGOs and religious groups approve of spewing messages that are against the Japanese political establishments, such as the comfort women issues and etc. Of course, since many South Korean groups are making friendships with everything non-governmental inside Japan.
I find this perspective rather interesting. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="cfile2"]
| koreatimes wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Great thing they did there for these poor women.
Japan has offered many things but no official apology like the Germans did way back in the 1940s and early 1950s and THAT is the issue. Too bad some people here cannot grasp this and far worse that they would use this thread to push their crap into the discussion as one more "oh shut up already" Korea bash fest.
These women were kidnapped when they were 12, 13 and 14, then they were enslaved and sexually assaulted everyday, beaten and sometimes killed by Japanese soldiers. They deserve a god damn statue and some respect.
It also seems simple to stop instigating hate on a different group of Japanese people who are not responsible for their ancestors.
I would rather spend my time enjoying a feast with good Japanese and good Koreans who can put aside their past historical conflicts. It's too bad these women probably haven't looked at people beyond a label.
Are there any other statues in front of an embassy in the world that are associated with crimes? I am trying to find one, I can't. |
No I think you'll have to excuse them. They haven't had a chance to "look past the label" yet. They've been busy reliving years of horrible rape and murder in their nightmares. |
This quote is not all mine, you merged two quotes either by mistake or in trying to do something else...part in italics is mine, the rest is a response from someone else thanks. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Great thing they did there for these poor women.
Japan has offered many things but no official apology . |
Jesus Christ! They have made official apologies.
I've posted the examples three times already on this thread. |
Re-read your examples, then look up what official apology means and admission of guilt means.
Japan has done many things but a direct and clean apology along with an admission of their guilt on these crimes or issues has never been spoken or communicated.
The statue is not to punish anyone nor to incite racist hatred, it is to honour these poor women.
How anyone can fail to grasp this is just astounding. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Show me where I said that statue symbolizes "love and vigor". I don't recall saying it, and would like you to quote me on it. |
I believe you aren't following our conversation. It is you that wanted me to address "hatred" and how it is connected to the statue. So far, I don't see any love or vigor.
| Quote: |
| So where do you see "evil"? |
Already covered in my previous reply. Try again.
A slug doesn't have to spit slime to be slimey. |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Soooooo... by your logic, anything that has ever happened in the past must immediately be forgotten/forgiven? |
No, I never stated those extremes. However, I would put something that bonds people together in front of an embassy, not something that would continue tensions.
Things like a monument which remind us of bad times should be placed in the appropriate places. I feel a museum or park would be more suitable.
When I see the statue, I see nothing that indicates why it was made. It doesn't communicate rape at all. It's just a girl sitting. Looks more like she is contemplating something.
You would have to read about it, understand the significance, and then seek out the statue in front of the embassy to actually make the connection when you see it. That would only bring about hatred, and that is not something I want to see in the world.
Do people that built that intend on visitors to party next to it knowing the reason for it to be up?
I can't see any reason to put it up. Just makes Koreans look more hateful if they support it. |
you brought up Hate there.
I notice how you're unable to show how this statue is hateful. |
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