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Suicide Counseling In Korea
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jpe

Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Location: Seoul, SK

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:28 am Post subject:

Where are all these mass suicides happening?

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:41 am Post subject:

Plume D'ella Plumeria wrote:

Well, never mind. Koreatimes is ...

... special

What is that supposed to mean? I am not an Enquirer reading sensationalist?

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:44 am Post subject:

jpe wrote:

Where are all these mass suicides happening?

I don't know what you mean by "mass" suicides.

However, "pact" suicides happen when people agree to kill themselves together. This is partly why they are looking for companionship, but it is also possible to escalate to situations where cult members, like in the Heaven's Gate cult, took their lives. It wasn't just 1 person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_pact

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject:

koreatimes wrote:

jpe wrote:

Where are all these mass suicides happening?

KT where are YOUR facts? And I mean actual facts, not your sociological opinions. Where are your statistics on pact suicides in Korea?

Even so, explain how that would have any impact at all on the suicide rate or what is written in the article.

Considering I said that the counselors would agree that suicide is a complex problem with MANY different sources/causes. Why shouldn't pact suicides be considered?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject:

cfile2 wrote:

[b
Again, I'm really not sure what you are asking of me here. I quoted a reliable study conducted by the OECD. The FACT is Korea has the highest rate among the OECD members. .

That study was conducted in 2009...it is now all but 2012.

So the FACT is that Korea had (not has) the highest rate among the OECD members in 2009.

Yeah 2 little words but they change the entire meaning.

Also when we break down by age it is New Zealand who has the highest rate of female youth suicide of the OECD countries. And Iceland, Finland and NZ all have higher male youth suicide rates than Korea. (See the first link)
Also Korea's data is skewed because the highest rate is among the elderly who are more likely to take their lives than any other group. (see the second link).

Quote:

Compared with other OECD countries, New Zealand has a higher suicide rate for males aged 15�24 years than in any other country except Iceland and Finland. The New Zealand female youth suicide rate in 2008 was higher than that of any other OECD country, including Finland, Japan, Sweden and the Republic of Korea.�

http://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2011/08/18/nzs-youth-suicide-among-worst-in-oecd-report/

http://www.rainbowaccess.org/TopicIndex/suicidermyths.html

Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

Poltergeist

Joined: 03 Sep 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject:

This is an irritating thread. The OP used the most reliable and current statistics available. As others have said, it was a short article and not a PhD thesis. Personally, as a reader I'm glad he didn't talk down to me by regurgitating somebody's anti-suicide pamphlet or bore me to death with a debate about the ethics of suicide or how the OECD compiles its statistics. It was an interesting, useful, informative news feature and the OP should be proud of it.

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

cfile2 wrote:

[b
Again, I'm really not sure what you are asking of me here. I quoted a reliable study conducted by the OECD. The FACT is Korea has the highest rate among the OECD members. .

Ok but keep in mind those statistics are to the END of 2009. 2 years old. In the world of statistics, that is a very short amount of time. It's reasonable to assume, given the data trends, Korea probably still has the highest rate as of the end of 2011.

Quoting the most recent data available supports my claim and I'm fine perfectly happy with the way that statistics were used in the article.

Quite frankly I'm shocked that the statistics were picked as the main point of contention. Those two little words hardly change the ENTIRE meaning of the article.

The point remains that Korea has an extremely high suicide rate and that it's a problem that needs to be addressed in this country. Regardless of whether its the highest in the world, highest in the OECD, or just plain higher than the average. That was the point of the article. The statistic is accurate, my claims about it are accurate and it's hardly a focal point of the article. It provides some context for why I'm writing the article in the first place but that is about it.

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

cfile2 wrote:

[b
Again, I'm really not sure what you are asking of me here. I quoted a reliable study conducted by the OECD. The FACT is Korea has the highest rate among the OECD members. .

Quote:

http://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2011/08/18/nzs-youth-suicide-among-worst-in-oecd-report/

http://www.rainbowaccess.org/TopicIndex/suicidermyths.html

That doesn't skew any numbers. Who cares what age group has the highest rate? I wasn't comparing that. And I even mentioned it in the article that the elderly have the highest rate.

Overall, Korea has the highest in the OECD nations. That is what the data shows. This article wasn't arguing the nuances of statistical methods used to gather the data.

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject:

cfile2 wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

jpe wrote:

Where are all these mass suicides happening?

I agree they should be considered, but not mixed. I think having statistics based on pact suicides would be very convincing.

I would say 75% of these total suicides were more a result of 1 individual taking their life due to either coercion or feeling like they didn't fit in with a norm/standard.

This says more about the country and how they pressure people. If the older person feels they are a burden, then they are not killing themself because of depression, they are doing it for the group. Let's see those stats.

Maybe you should ask OECD.

Quote:

Also Korea's data is skewed because the highest rate is among the elderly who are more likely to take their lives than any other group. (see the second link).

I don't think this person is interested in reporting facts. They just want to lump all findings so they can get Korea to have the "highest" (in a category they know a lot of readers will eat up without critically thinking what those numbers represent).

I wonder if the Guiness Book Of World Records has Korea listed as the country with the most suicides. That's what it sounds like the "journalist" is out to achieve.

Whether someone is the tallest, fattest, skinniest, whatever, doesn't make them out to be better or worse than others (or whatever condition you are measuring).

There is a more global issue than just taking your own life. If you fixate on only the numbers, you will miss it.

Last edited by koreatimes on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:56 pm Post subject:

koreatimes wrote:

cfile2 wrote:

koreatimes wrote:

jpe wrote:

Where are all these mass suicides happening?

I agree they should be considered, but not mixed. I think having statistics based on pact suicides would be very convincing.

I would say 75% of these total suicides were more a result of 1 individual taking their life as a result of either coercion or feeling like they didn't fit in with a norm/standard.

A lot less too their own lives because of depression.

This says more about the country and how they pressure people. If the older person feels they are a burden, then they are not killing themself because of depression, they are doing it for the group. Let's see those stats.

Maybe you should ask OECD.

Quote:

Also Korea's data is skewed because the highest rate is among the elderly who are more likely to take their lives than any other group. (see the second link).

I don't think this person is interested in reporting facts. They just want to lump all findings so they can get Korea to have the "highest".

I wonder if the Guiness Book Of World Records has Korea listed as the country with the most suicides. That's what it sounds like the "journalist" is out to achieve.

Whether someone is the tallest, fattest, skinniest, whatever, doesn't make them out to be better or worse than others (or whatever condition you are measuring).

There is a more global issue than just taking your own life. If you fixate on only the numbers, you will miss it.

And there we have it. You have been assuming this whole time that somehow having the highest suicide rate makes you "worse" than other people. It doesn't. It's an objective fact. I don't begrudge Korea for having the highest rate. I don't think anybody does.

I didn't fixate on the numbers. They received 1 paragraph. I fixated on the people that do suicide counseling in Korea.

Yes there is more to the global issue than taking your own life. These people talked about the MANY reasons. Including the societal pressure you are talking about.

Notice how I quoted the woman as saying that there is a culture of competition here and that people feel pressure to be the best?

I discussed all the things you are talking about here through the voice of these counselors. You must have stopped reading the article at some point.

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You have been assuming this whole time that somehow having the highest suicide rate makes you "worse" than other people.

You are reporting on a finding with too many variables. I don't know how more simply to explain this. This has nothing to do with better or worse. It has to do with what those findings represent. If you just lump all suicides together, you get muddled results. Reporting on those results is meaningless. Not better, not worse, meaningless.

Counseling is an important thing for some individuals. The OECD findings should not have been mentioned at all. They also include pact suicides which I am asserting would account for a lot more. You only mentioned individuals in your article, not groups.

The counselors you interviewed said nothing about pact suicides, so you probably never interviewed someone who helps out with cult awareness groups or with groups of people committing suicide. At least, you didn't report on that.

Quote:

I didn't fixate on the numbers. They received 1 paragraph. I fixated on the people that do suicide counseling in Korea.

Yes, you did, "This gives South Korea one of the highest suicide rates in the developed world, ranking first among member states of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD)"

You said they were "first". You are the one who put things in the superlative, not me.

That "first" label is meaningless, it is not better or worse, but meaningless.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject:

cfile2 wrote:

[.

Overall, Korea has the highest in the OECD nations. That is what the data shows. This article wasn't arguing the nuances of statistical methods used to gather the data.

And that is why it may be a misleading conclusion. Two things. According to Wiki first up to and including 2007 Japan had a higher suicide rate

Quote:

In 2007, Japan ranked first among G8 countries for female suicides and second, behind Russia, for male suicides.[12]

Secondly Japan's reporting of what they consider suicides is considerably stricter than say what the WHO uses. Other countries also have different standards of reporting. This leads to numbers being skewed as well. Korea uses the WHO standards while Japan applies a stricter standard. Can't really be compared. To be a really accurate statistician that should also be considered as well. Of course if you just want to complain about Korea you can ignore all the extenuating circumstances. Don't be surprised when others point them out though.

And speaking of Japan:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate

Korea may have the highest rates in the OCED in 2009 but Japan has the highest total.

Quote:

In 2009, Japan's suicide total rose 2% to 32,845, equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people and significantly higher than for any other OECD country.

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

cfile2 wrote:

[.

Overall, Korea has the highest in the OECD nations. That is what the data shows. This article wasn't arguing the nuances of statistical methods used to gather the data.

And that is why it may be a misleading conclusion. Two things. According to Wiki first up to and including 2007 Japan had a higher suicide rate

Quote:

In 2007, Japan ranked first among G8 countries for female suicides and second, behind Russia, for male suicides.[12]

Quote:

In 2009, Japan's suicide total rose 2% to 32,845, equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people and significantly higher than for any other OECD country.

Did I complain about Korea? Read the article and tell me that it's a complaint in any way. If anything I think the story is a positive one. Mainly focusing on one of the most interesting and thoughtful Koreans I've met who has essentially dedicated her retirement to helping her community.

Again, the focus was hardly on the statistics. My purpose for mentioning it was more or less to show that the suicide counselors are taking on a sizable problem. I also mentioned it because it is the one that is most often cited and I then went on to say, and I'm quoting the article directly here:

"The problem, however, goes deeper than statistics can relate."

That's right, I acknowledged that the problem goes deeper than the statistics can relate.

And then I spend the rest of the article talking about it's complexities through the eyes of people more knowledgeable that I am on the topic.

I even say this: "All three agree that suicide can be a combination of many factors, though, and that any solution lies in education, awareness and participation."

The combination of factors includes both personal and societal.

At MOST I could have stated the statistic slightly differently. Perhaps: When taken together, pact suicides and individual suicides give Korea the highest rate in the OECD. Or something to that effect.

I don't see that it really changes the angle of the article in anyway given that its stated that the statistic doesn't relate the problem very well and that I later say that there are many factors contributing to the problem.

I think we more or less agree on the subject but you are both making assumptions about how I viewed the problem.

You have both said things that lead me to believe that you think I had some sort of manipulative/Korea smearing agenda. Far from it. I've received mostly positive feedback from this story both in this thread and in e-mails.

In fact, you are the only two that have said anything about the statistics being a manipulation.

koreatimes

Joined: 07 Jun 2011

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

My purpose for mentioning it was more or less to show that the suicide counselors are taking on a sizable problem.

How many of the patients are in pact suicide groups? Chances are more likely those people aren't seeking individual counseling (which makes it even more dangerous because they are trusting the group leader to do the counseling, the one organizing a pact suicide). You are mixing 2 groups, and you use stats which represent pact suicides but want to show the work of the counselors.

If the counselors are in fact counseling pact suicide members, then note that, and that would be an interesting read.

Quote:

pact suicides and individual suicides give Korea the highest rate in the OECD. Or something to that effect.

We finally cracked the shell. Good on ya.

Quote:

You have both said things that lead me to believe that you think I had some sort of manipulative/Korea smearing agenda.

This has nothing to do with that, and that is your assumption. In a way it is me that has a smearing agenda. My assertion is that these suicides in Korea (and Japan) are caused more so by group participation than individuals deciding to do it.

Quote:

In fact, you are the only two that have said anything about the statistics being a manipulation.

I think there was misrepresentation in what the OECD researched and you reporting on it amplified it. I don't think they manipulated anything, but simply that inaccurate assumptions that Korea is the first have been reported by both them and you.

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:23 am Post subject:

koreatimes wrote:

Quote:

My purpose for mentioning it was more or less to show that the suicide counselors are taking on a sizable problem.

Quote:

pact suicides and individual suicides give Korea the highest rate in the OECD. Or something to that effect.

We finally cracked the shell. Good on ya.

Quote:

You have both said things that lead me to believe that you think I had some sort of manipulative/Korea smearing agenda.

Quote:

In fact, you are the only two that have said anything about the statistics being a manipulation.

I would have gladly taken your point if you had simply stated it that way from the beginning. Ultimately, I don't think it makes enough of a difference, nor was it within the scope of this article, to discuss the differences between pact and individual suicides. Perhaps I will write that article at a different time as it may be something that deserves attention.

However, it took us 4 pages of back-and-fourths for me to finally figure out that what you were really demanding this whole time was that I simply needed to add that one little line before stating the OECD statistic.

Without that line, you've stated that the whole article is "useless", an assumption I certainly don't agree with. Maybe if I had been over simplistic you would have a point but I don't think I was. I acknowledged the inadequacies of statistics (perhaps less directly than what you personally would have preferred to have seen) and I made sure to mention that even the reasons the counselors gave weren't adequate enough to cover the whole scope of the problem.

If anything I think I deconstructed that statistic and showed it to be less revealing than what has previously been reported.

And yes, you did assert that I had an agenda: (near the beginning of this thread)

"I suggest, if you want to lash out at Korea for the hardships Koreans face"

and

"Your agenda won't help the problem."

Let's not pretend I'm the one making wild assumptions here, KT.

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