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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| I would have gladly taken your point if you had simply stated it that way from the beginning. |
I did, look at the 7th reply after the original post. That's moi.
"I find this whole Korea suicide connection and data which misrepresents the truth more disturbing than the actual decision to end your life which should be yours and your decision only."
In my last post, I stated, "I think there was misrepresentation in what the OECD researched and you reporting on it amplified it."
Nothing has changed, except you are finally acknowledging it. Let's just end this debate. Good luck in your future articles. We definitely need these issues you glossed over addressed.
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| Lois, Pulitzer Prizes are like Academy Awards, nobody remembers what you got one for, just that you got one. |
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| Let's not pretend I'm the one making wild assumptions here, KT. |
I used the word "if". We all have agendas and IF one of yours was to lash out on Korea for hardships they face, you write an article about that instead of one of the symptoms of those hardships.
Seems rather clear to me. An assumption would have been, "Why are you lashing out on Koreans?", to which would have been naive on my part because I can clearly see why this article was written. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| I would have gladly taken your point if you had simply stated it that way from the beginning. |
I did, look at the 7th reply after the original post. That's moi.
"I find this whole Korea suicide connection and data which misrepresents the truth more disturbing than the actual decision to end your life which should be yours and your decision only."
In my last post, I stated, "I think there was misrepresentation in what the OECD researched and you reporting on it amplified it."
Nothing has changed, except you are finally acknowledging it. Let's just end this debate. Good luck in your future articles. We definitely need these issues you glossed over addressed.
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| Lois, Pulitzer Prizes are like Academy Awards, nobody remembers what you got one for, just that you got one. |
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| Let's not pretend I'm the one making wild assumptions here, KT. |
I used the word "if". We all have agendas and IF one of yours was to lash out on Korea for hardships they face, you write an article about that instead of one of the symptoms of those hardships.
Seems rather clear to me. An assumption would have been, "Why are you lashing out on Koreans?", to which would have been naive on my part because I can clearly see why this article was written. |
Semantics aside, I'm hardly agreeing with you. I don't think there was any misrepresenting the data. I don't think the way I reported it was wrong. If I had the chance to edit it and repost it to Yonhap, that part of the story would remain the same.
I've merely come to see how you would have liked it to be written.
But yes, we will end this here. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think there was any misrepresenting the data. |
The suicide rate is not correct, it misrepresents what is really going on. If anything it represents homicides more than a suicide. It's as silly as associating suicide bombers with suicide when they actually end up killing those around them.
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| I've merely come to see how you would have liked it to be written. |
And I told you. You seem to be bickering and getting defensive with only those that disagree with you. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| I don't think there was any misrepresenting the data. |
The suicide rate is not correct, it misrepresents what is really going on. If anything it represents homicides more than a suicide. It's as silly as associating suicide bombers with suicide when they actually end up killing those around them.
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| I've merely come to see how you would have liked it to be written. |
And I told you. You seem to be bickering and getting defensive with only those that disagree with you. |
Nope. And that is sort of a moot point. Why on earth would anyone bicker and get defensive with someone complimenting their work or agreeing with them?
I am defensive because of the tone and language of your posts. And don't play games, you know you're coming off as aggressive. Saying that you don't think I'm interested in facts, using quotes around "journalist" to imply that I'm not good at my job among other things. You know exactly what you were doing and that any one would be put on the defense by that sort of thing.
You and I disagree about the quality of the data and it's stated purpose within the article. You feel I glossed over some issues. I feel that the issues you raised would make for a whole different article entirely and weren't within the scope of this particular story.
I take exception that Urban Myth claims I am in anyway complaining about Korea in the article. I'm really not and I don't think that comes across anywhere.
In contrast to the two of you, Illysook had a perfectly valid criticism and I took it for what it was, no bickering, no defensiveness. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| You and I disagree about the quality of the data and it's stated purpose within the article. |
Yes, I it looks like we disagree on that.
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| I feel that the issues you raised would make for a whole different article entirely and weren't within the scope of this particular story. |
This is an example of how you aren't looking at what I stated. If I wrote an article titled "Coke and Pepsi", and then I proceeded to only talk about Coke employees you might get the expectation as a reader that I left something out about Pepsi. If I cited a stat which represented Coke and Pepsi, but then interviewed only managers of Coke employees, you too might feel the article does not address the title of the article. You know exactly what you were doing.
You only addressed inviduals going to see a counselor, but you cited a stat which included pact suicides, and you failed to recognize it in the article.
Being incomplete is not different, it is being incomplete. That in effect misrepresents the scope of what you were going after.
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| I take exception that Urban Myth claims I am in anyway complaining about Korea in the article. I'm really not and I don't think that comes across anywhere. |
Common sense should tell you suicide, any suicide, is not something people immediately attach to. I am sure you would agree that unfavorable circumstances put people in a situation where they decide to do this.
It's that characteristic which brands it a "negative". By you citing something which declares it "first" in some statistic, you are joining the two. It is not far fetched to conclude the article had some negative connotation to it just as it is reasonable to conclude the word "cheap" might be considered negative if someone said you were wearing cheap clothes.
If what you only wanted was to show what counselors felt about the issue, you didn't need to cite anything from OECD. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| You and I disagree about the quality of the data and it's stated purpose within the article. |
Yes, I it looks like we disagree on that.
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| I feel that the issues you raised would make for a whole different article entirely and weren't within the scope of this particular story. |
This is an example of how you aren't looking at what I stated. If I wrote an article titled "Coke and Pepsi", and then I proceeded to only talk about Coke employees you might get the expectation as a reader that I left something out about Pepsi. If I cited a stat which represented Coke and Pepsi, but then interviewed only managers of Coke employees, you too might feel the article does not address the title of the article. You know exactly what you were doing.
You only addressed inviduals going to see a counselor, but you cited a stat which included pact suicides, and you failed to recognize it in the article.
Being incomplete is not different, it is being incomplete. That in effect misrepresents the scope of what you were going after.
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| I take exception that Urban Myth claims I am in anyway complaining about Korea in the article. I'm really not and I don't think that comes across anywhere. |
Common sense should tell you suicide, any suicide, is not something people immediately attach to. I am sure you would agree that unfavorable circumstances put people in a situation where they decide to do this.
It's that characteristic which brands it a "negative". By you citing something which declares it "first" in some statistic, you are joining the two. It is not far fetched to conclude the article had some negative connotation to it just as it is reasonable to conclude the word "cheap" might be considered negative if someone said you were wearing cheap clothes.
If what you only wanted was to show what counselors felt about the issue, you didn't need to cite anything from OECD. |
Sure, the article shows some of the problems of Korean society. But writing about the negatives in a society does not equal complaining.
No where in the article did I complain. And I repeat, I think the article is a positive story about the people working to solve a deep rooted social issue.
I'll continue to write about Koreas social problems because that is what interests me most. Doesn't mean I'm complaining, it means I'm interested in understanding some of the more complex issues of the place I'm living. I'd do (and have done) the same thing anywhere I was living.
So we agree to disagree.
Also, the title of the article (not chosen by me by the way) was " Listening to save lives."
The article directly addresses its title. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Also, the title of the article (not chosen by me by the way) was " Listening to save lives."
The article directly addresses its title. |
Saving lives? It's a good thing Korea has the lowest suicide rate then. A lot of lives have been saved.
That just shows how much your article was a flop. Continue to write, I am not discouraging you.
I also find it ironic that you didn't choose the title. A lot of these suicide pact members don't choose to kill themselves either. Someone else chooses it for them. Therein lies the danger. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
Also, the title of the article (not chosen by me by the way) was " Listening to save lives."
The article directly addresses its title. |
Saving lives? It's a good thing Korea has the lowest suicide rate then. A lot of lives have been saved.
That just shows how much your article was a flop. Continue to write, I am not discouraging you.
I also find it ironic that you didn't choose the title. A lot of these suicide pact members don't choose to kill themselves either. Someone else chooses it for them. Therein lies the danger. |
Does it say "Listening and saving lives"?
Nope. It says "Listening to save lives" as in the intent of these people is to try and save lives.
Why is it ironic that I didn't choose the title? At most news organizations the title is written by the editorial team. That is standard practice.
But you are a contrarian so write what you will. The article was a flop by your standards, a success by mine considering the amount of positive feedback its gotten. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
Also, the title of the article (not chosen by me by the way) was " Listening to save lives."
The article directly addresses its title. |
Saving lives? It's a good thing Korea has the lowest suicide rate then. A lot of lives have been saved.
That just shows how much your article was a flop. Continue to write, I am not discouraging you.
I also find it ironic that you didn't choose the title. A lot of these suicide pact members don't choose to kill themselves either. Someone else chooses it for them. Therein lies the danger. |
Does it say "Listening and saving lives"?
Nope. It says "Listening to save lives" as in the intent of these people is to try and save lives.
Why is it ironic that I didn't choose the title? At most news organizations the title is written by the editorial team. That is standard practice.
But you are a contrarian so write what you will. The article was a flop by your standards, a success by mine considering the amount of positive feedback its gotten. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: |
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So, not only did your article not address pact suicides, but lives were not saved. Wow. Good job. Nice article. You are the bestest writer on the planet. I think we found the last nails to this coffin.
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| Lois, Pulitzer Prizes are like Academy Awards, nobody remembers what you got one for, just that you got one. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| So, not only did your article not address pact suicides but lives were not saved. Wow. Good job. Nice article. You are the bestest writer on the planet. |
Well, one specific story is addressed in the article about someone's life being saved (which at this point I'm convinced you didn't fully read. Seems more like you skimmed it).
Not that it has any relevance to broader issues in the article. Whether or not lives were saved is completely irrelevant. It was a story about the opinions/jobs of suicide counselors. Something you still haven't grasped and we've been at this for far awhile now. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| It was a story about the opinions/jobs of suicide counselors. Something you still haven't grasped and we've been at this for far awhile now. |
Then you didn't need to state OECD statistics, something you still haven't grasped. Yes, we've been at this for far awhile now. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cfile2 wrote: |
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I take exception that Urban Myth claims I am in anyway complaining about Korea in the article. . |
I don't want to get back into this rapidly degenerating thread but if you are going to call me out, could you do me the courtesy of actually responding to what I wrote?
I made no such claim whatsoever.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Of course if you just want to complain about Korea you can ignore all the extenuating circumstances. |
(bolding added for clarification.)
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cfile2 wrote: |
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Overall, Korea has the highest in the OECD nations. That is what the data shows. This article wasn't arguing the nuances of statistical methods used to gather the data. |
And that is why it may be a misleading conclusion. Two things. According to Wiki first up to and including 2007 Japan had a higher suicide rate
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| In 2007, Japan ranked first among G8 countries for female suicides and second, behind Russia, for male suicides.[12] |
Secondly Japan's reporting of what they consider suicides is considerably stricter than say what the WHO uses. Other countries also have different standards of reporting. This leads to numbers being skewed as well. Korea uses the WHO standards while Japan applies a stricter standard. Can't really be compared. To be a really accurate statistician that should also be considered as well. Of course if you just want to complain about Korea you can ignore all the extenuating circumstances. Don't be surprised when others point them out though.
And speaking of Japan:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate
Korea may have the highest rates in the OCED in 2009 but Japan has the highest total.
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| In 2009, Japan's suicide total rose 2% to 32,845, equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people and significantly higher than for any other OECD country. |
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*sigh* There you go. You made the claim. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| cfile2 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cfile2 wrote: |
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Overall, Korea has the highest in the OECD nations. That is what the data shows. This article wasn't arguing the nuances of statistical methods used to gather the data. |
And that is why it may be a misleading conclusion. Two things. According to Wiki first up to and including 2007 Japan had a higher suicide rate
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| In 2007, Japan ranked first among G8 countries for female suicides and second, behind Russia, for male suicides.[12] |
Secondly Japan's reporting of what they consider suicides is considerably stricter than say what the WHO uses. Other countries also have different standards of reporting. This leads to numbers being skewed as well. Korea uses the WHO standards while Japan applies a stricter standard. Can't really be compared. To be a really accurate statistician that should also be considered as well. Of course if you just want to complain about Korea you can ignore all the extenuating circumstances. Don't be surprised when others point them out though.
And speaking of Japan:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate
Korea may have the highest rates in the OCED in 2009 but Japan has the highest total.
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| In 2009, Japan's suicide total rose 2% to 32,845, equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people and significantly higher than for any other OECD country. |
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*sigh* There you go. You made the claim. |
Do you understand what IF means? As I edited my post above to show, I mentioned a possibility. I did not make a claim. |
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