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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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 Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
1st off, rape apologists, would all of you publicly espouse this view at a dinnertable where women would be sitting?
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First of all nobody is excusing the actions by the Japanese. Rape apologist?
Screw you.
You're the same guy who think the Japanese should commit suicide in disgrace. You're not thinking logical. You're posts here are almost a 100% emotional and you really can't debate with someone like that.
What are you supposed to say about anyone who has gone through a terrorizing situation?
How do the Germans apologise for gassing the jews and the gypsies?
How do the Hutus apologising for butchering and raping the Tutsis and vice versa?
How do the Khemer apologise for butchering their own people?
These are the facts:
(1) Japan has made apologies at the highest levels. I've provided direct quotes.
(2) Japanese war criminals were brough to trial.
(3) Japan paid South Korea reparations.
(4) Japan had a few nuclear bombs dropped on them.
(5) Japan has been a respected member of the international community since their defeat. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| These women cannot move on with their lives until the Japanese government take some responsibility and give a proper apology. |
Okay, so what would actually constitute a proper ending to all this? |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
( Why president Park didn't pay the women with the reparation money?)
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Thank you!
Steelrails, care to answer this one? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Soldiers are not going to step up and admit to it. Come on now. How do you prove they were there? ("No no no, I am Takada, not Takida, you got wrong person.")
This will NEVER happen, give it up. |
So because someone won't admit to a crime, you give up?
You are saying "Rapists won't admit to it, we should give up trying to catch them."
Great message to send to the women of the world.
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| A statue doesn't bring the attention to their cause. People informing me online has brought attention to it. My position is no different as it relates to the crimes, and I don't support it. I support a museum keeping this information instead. |
Fine, you're entitled to your opinion that a museum might be better.
The women have the right of freedom of assembly and speech.
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Sincere about what? Something they didn't do? The Japanese today did nothing. You got a few dying soldiers you can snipe off in their dying years. That's about it.
New time. |
What about the politicians in power now that have continued to stonewall for the past 20 years when a significantly larger number of Japanese WWII veterans were alive?
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| The Japanese government today is not the same as is was, and those leaders are dead. |
Hirohito died in 1989. Plenty of Japanese politicians were active back then.
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| No statue is needed |
Why does the statue bother you so much?
Your opinion is that it's a symbol of hate. Pretty much every woman (and man) around the world would beg to differ, including a significant number of Japanese women and men.
You do realize that if you were to put this issue to a global public opinion poll it would come out like 95-5 in Korea's favor, right?
This isn't some 50-50 issue like abortion or taxes or something. This is a 95-5 issue. Usually that indicates that something really whack happened.
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| A statue doesn't have to be built every time someone feels wronged. In this case wronged means harboring a criminal. |
I think mass military rape is deserving of a statue.
You may think that that is a trivial matter.
I invite you to look those women in the face and tell them that.
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| And that is a defining characteristic of hate. |
Calling out governments that deny and shuffle their feet on an issue of mass-rape? That's hate?
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| Enjoy hating Japanese on a holiday. |
Please, no one is hating Japanese.
You do realize that there is a MASSIVE gender, not just nationality, component to this argument, right?
It's about treating mass military rape as a serious crime.
Because let's face it, if you were repeatedly raped you would have a far different opinion, no matter what your internet BS claims are.
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| You're the same guy who think the Japanese should commit suicide in disgrace. |
I never said they should, I said that is one of the forms that sincere apology in East Asia takes. There are others.
Legalistic diplomatic statements are not one of them.
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| How do the Germans apologise for gassing the jews and the gypsies? |
The German reaction to their atrocities of WWII has been far different than the Japanese.
There is no German equivalent to the Japanese war shrines and the German people would vilify anyone who would visit the Nazi equivalent of it.
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| (1) Japan has made apologies at the highest levels. I've provided direct quotes. |
Those apologies are shrouded in legalistic language so as to prevent any liability. They are also worded in such a way as to emphasis "regret that the situation occurred" rather than saying "We were wrong".
Also you are confusing statements issued by the Japanese Prime Minister with official governmental positions. In order for the Japanese government to apologize and not a Prime Minister offering his own personal apologies, in has to be part of a government resolution.
These distinctions may seem small to you, but they are extremely significant in international relations. Trained politicos and international relations experts can tell the difference and understand what is going on.
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| (2) Japanese war criminals were brough to trial. |
Not for mass rape.
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| (3) Japan paid South Korea reparations. |
The government paid general reparations, the government did not offer specific compensation to the rape victims.
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| (4) Japan had a few nuclear bombs dropped on them. |
Irrelevant.
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| (5) Japan has been a respected member of the international community since their defeat. |
To whom?
To the U.S. and Europeans, yes.
To the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Vietnamese, and the rest of Asia, not so much.
They haven't been the worst. But they haven't truly lived up to their role in WWII and the immorality of it in the way the Germans did for WWII.
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Thank you!
Steelrails, care to answer this one? |
The government money was intended to be used for forced manual laborers, not sex slaves.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20070801a1.html
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The House resolution, which has no companion in the Senate, urges Japan to "formally acknowledge, apologize and accept historical responsibility in a clear and unequivocal manner" for the suffering of the "comfort women," as Japan euphemistically referred to them.
Lawmakers want an apology similar to the one the U.S. government gave to Japanese-Americans forced into internment camps during World War II. That apology was approved by Congress and signed into law in 1988 by President Ronald Reagan. |
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| In Tokyo on Tuesday, Abe called the passage of the resolution "regrettable." |
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| You went on and repeated the same stuff, so I'll skip that crap. |
The same stuff is brought up again and again because you have no answer for it.
When someone says that a statement issued by the Japanese Prime Minister is not the same as an official apology by the Japanese Government (something that would require a resolution in the Japanese Diet) you simply don't answer, so when you bring up your counterpoints, these things are brought up again. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Why didn't President Park use the reparations money on some of the comfort women?
I still don't understand this one. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Great message to send to the women of the world. |
After 10 years, yes it is a great message. I wouldn't spend my whole life.
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Fine, you're entitled to your opinion that a museum might be better.
The women have the right of freedom of assembly and speech. |
That doesn't mean a statue has to be built.
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| What about the politicians in power now that have continued to stonewall for the past 20 years when a significantly larger number of Japanese WWII veterans were alive? |
They didn't commit the crimes, and the lesser crime you want to accuse them of functions like a red herring in this thread regarding a statue. If the raped victims shouldn't be allowed to have a statue in front of an embassy, then these politicians would have less of a right. You want to give them more rights than the rape victims?
Eat your own crap for once. I am sick of your replies, I am sick of your red herrings, I am sick of the fact you can't stay on topic. All you have said is crap, crap, crap, in this thread.
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| Why does the statue bother you so much? |
Your reading comprehension is terrible. I talked about it being in front of an embassy, not the statue itself. Learn to read.
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| Calling out governments that deny and shuffle their feet on an issue of mass-rape? That's hate? |
Yes, that is hate. Any other government would do the same. And so they should. Let's blame the Korean government, they are no different than the Japanese government today. Neither one is raping or allowing it today. Wake up to present time.
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| You do realize that there is a MASSIVE gender, not just nationality, component to this argument, right? |
Now it is hating men, what the hell is your agenda? If this has to do with men, then it proves your point less. The Japanese government shouldn't be singled out then because there are men in governments all around the world.
What are you trying to prove here? You aren't even addressing the thread topic and making absurd red herrings.
Your tactic is to post a lot, not address the thread topic, and take people's replies out of context. Well done. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
Why didn't President Park use the reparations money on some of the comfort women?
I still don't understand this one. |
Ask him.
I'm guessing it was because he was trying to piece together Korea economically. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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The survivors were in their teens when they were kidnapped, gang raped, held for years being gang-raped. The answer to them: MOVE ON! Just slide that little item down the memory hole.
Lets not use the word rape apologist anymore, Pro rape is more fitting.
The agenda is to let these people know that the world does care and that these crimes will not be forgotten and by not forgetting we can try not to let it happen again.
All the twist and turns of logic will not change the fact that there has been no official apology from the Japanese government.
I do love the Orwellian nature of turning the efforts of the comfort women to get some sort of closure from the crimes they endured into hating the Japanese. of course we already know the drill "Love is hate' "Work is freedom" Nothing new. there will always be those who support enslavement in the name of progress or think they are superior and that morality does not apply to them. Nothing new! Old stuff! Move on!! |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The agenda is to let these people know that the world does care and that these crimes will not be forgotten and by not forgetting we can try not to let it happen again. |
This will happen again. I am not in favor of it, I don't want it to, and I have no plans on forgetting bad acts in the past. However, when you put guys in prison, it's no longer a society. They are fighters and form groups that would not be formed outside of prison. If you don't fit in with that violent clique, you won't get picked on like in high school, you will get scarred and beaten just like the women you don't want people to forget.
If a soldier is told to go in and rape a woman or they will get beaten, what is the soldier going to do? If they refuse, the woman will still get raped. Just look at Iraq, there was at least one incident where they went to one family's home and they treated one girl worse than the Korean women. She never made it. Look at Tillman in Afghanistan, his head blown away because he didn't along with the violent clique.
You can single Korea out all you want, but it's not a Korea thing. You can single Japan out as the perpetrator all you want, but it's not Japan thing. You can single out each soldier who did the act, but it's not a single soldier thing.
Close your fist, go grr, cause you probably didn't want to hear all that. Be the superman if you must, try to put up a statue and stamp out rape. It will only preoccupy your mind when in fact you can't control any of it.
Somewhere within the therapy we must find a new life to live which doesn't rely on reparations or tangible objects to continue living. I sure hope these women find that if they haven't before they die. That is more important than a law or appeal to emotion. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| After 10 years, yes it is a great message. I wouldn't spend my whole life. |
I think you would have a different opinion if you were actually raped repeatedly. Your statement is full of bravado.
They didn't spend their hole life. Many did move on for a time, but once it became socially possible and they were in their twilight years they sought to deal with the burden that had been lurking inside of them.
Some choose to personally move on (or repress the memories). Fine.
By the way, addressing issues is psychologically healthier than repressing them. Especially if the perpetrator feels that they didn't do anything wrong.
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| Your reading comprehension is terrible. I talked about it being in front of an embassy, not the statue itself. Learn to read. |
You called the statue a symbol of hate.
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| Yes, that is hate. Any other government would do the same. And so they should. |
The German government certainly behaved differently. Holocaust perpetrators are still hunted down to this day.
The American government officially apologized and paid compensation to Japanese-Americans who were wrongfully interned.
No, it's not hate. It's accepting responsibility and being remorseful over one's actions.
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| Now it is hating men, what the hell is your agenda? |
So because I don't agree with your opinion, my opinion must be one of hate?
No one is hating men. What I'm suggesting is that your opinion is rather disrespectful to women. Saying women should just "get over it" in regards to rape is incredibly misogynistic and demeaning.
Oh and it's not about hating Japanese...
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The resolution, sponsored by the Japanese-American politician Mike Honda, was fought hard by Tokyo. An editorial in Japan's largest newspaper, Yomiuri, said there was not "one shred of evidence to substantiate" the claim that the Japanese government systematically coerced and recruited the women.
Today, a large banner showing a beaming Honda is draped across the main courtyard of the commune. A copy of Resolution 121, signed by Honda and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi hangs in Ahn Sin Kweon's office. "The resolution was very important for us because our priority is to keep the memory of the women alive," he says, recalling Honda's reception when he visited here last November. "He was treated like a hero." |
Have fun in you're 5% minority that disagrees with this. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| If a soldier is told to go in and rape a woman or they will get beaten, what is the soldier going to do? If they refuse, the woman will still get raped. Just look at Iraq, there was at least one incident where they went to one family's home and they treated one girl worse than the Korean women. She never made it. Look at Tillman in Afghanistan, his head blown away because he didn't along with the violent clique. |
Looks like someone never looked up any information about this at all.
From what I understand, the soldiers bought tickets to rape the women. Many of them would try to spend as long as they could to rape them within the 30 minute alloted time. Some soldiers never bought tickets at all. I think some were given a ticket free, for example, for a kamikaze pilot. Under those circumstances there are also instances of men going in and not actually doing anything more than sitting or talking (extremely rare) from what I understand. So, no, nobody was forcing the soldiers to rape under threat of beatings (someone who knows more than me, please feel free to correct me).
The argument that if you don't, someone else will is a horrible argument and only created to shift responsibility off of whoever uses it. It's a crappy excuse and in a situation like this, completely disgusting. If nobody did, nobody would. People are responsible for their own actions and should be held to them.
People were paying to rape these women. Nobody was forcing the soldiers to, and there seem to have been no repercussions for those who did not. So clearly you need to read up about this issue more before you make stupid criticisms like this.
It was accepted in the military culture then and there, but it doesn't mean soldiers were forced to rape the women. They always had a choice to stop, at the very least when they were in the stalls with the women. They could always just not rape them.
Your position on this issue disgusts me. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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A few more questions:
(1) Why hasn't the Japanese Parliament made an official apology?
(2) If those assiciated with the comfort women didn't want to be political why did they put the statue near the Japanese embassy? Why not place it somewhere else?
(3) Has the Japanese government provided direct compensation and an official apology to other nationalities of comfort women?
(4) Knowing that Koreans also served in the Japanese military is it conceivable that Koreans also used the comfort women?
(5) Have any other moder nations used comfort women (by the way what a stupid term - comfort women? ) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
A few more questions:
(1) Why hasn't the Japanese Parliament made an official apology?
(2) If those assiciated with the comfort women didn't want to be political why did they put the statue near the Japanese embassy? Why not place it somewhere else?
(3) Has the Japanese government provided direct compensation and an official apology to other nationalities of comfort women?
(4) Knowing that Koreans also served in the Japanese military is it conceivable that Koreans also used the comfort women?
(5) Have any other moder nations used comfort women (by the way what a stupid term - comfort women? ) |
1. Because that would mean accepting blame and revising their textbooks.
2. Where else would it be appropriate to place it?
3. Nope
4. Probably...what of it? They were working for the JAPANESE government and not the KOREAN government. Irrelevant point.
5. Yes it is a stupid term...take it up with the Japanese who invented it. As to your question...prostitution has always been a part of war...these women were forced into government-backed systematic sexual slavery though. I've not seen other modern nations accused of this, although if you have any links stating such I'd like to see them.
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Any imbalance in power makes physical and sexual assault more probable. This is particularly true in the widespread incidences of rape during wartime.
An estimated one hundred thousand to four hundred thousand female sex slaves were forced to deliver sexual services to Japanese soldiers, both before and during World War II. They have been variously called "comfort women," "military sex slaves," "MSS," "military comfort women," and -- in Japanese -- "jugun ianfu." This program was approved by the Imperial Conference, which was composed of the emperor, representatives from the armed forces and the main Cabinet ministers. The conference was formed after Japan invaded Manchuria in 1937. |
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| This atrocity by the Japanese government probably represents the largest organized mass rape in recorded history. Rapes probably numbered in excess of ten million.. Approximately 80 to 90% of the "comfort women" came from Korea which was occupied by the Japanese military at the time. |
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_japa.htm
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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And it's not just Korea
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2010/08/12/2003480180
Taiwan is also involved. Here's a statement from a member of the government.
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| I don�t remember how many times I have demanded Japan�s apology. If Japan can apologize to South Korea for its invasion of that country, it should also apologize to those Taiwanese who suffered under Japanese imperialism,� Democratic Progressive Party Legislator Huang Sue-ying (黃淑英) said. |
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