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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
, where have TUM or PGHBusan or Captain Corea or I been racist?
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Answer: Nowhere. But it's an attempt to stifle dissent by playing the race card...pretty pathetic. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| pr1ncejeffie wrote: |
Why is it that veterans of ESLCafe always defending Korea no matter how bias it is?
Are you also one of the people that were jumping for joy when the Tsunami hit the Japanese shores this year? Were you jumping with your Korean wife and Korean friends when they said, "they had it coming"? |
I take it you're simply trolling this thread.
Please stop. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| There is something more current to focus on...lol |
Guilty for addressing present atrocities (in the making and can be changed). Yes, you got me. Maybe I should put up a statue symbolizing past events (which can't be changed) instead. This makes rearranging seats on the Titanic into a rehearsal.
You clearly have a Japan only agenda, and it's definitely anti-Japan.
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| Seriously you could also have cited NK and its regime going into the future, Famine in Africa, Piracy off the coast of Somalia, US sluggish markets, global warming.... |
Good, and those don't require a statue. I concur.
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| What does that have to do with this thread topic? |
Do you know what the link was in reference to? It wasn't just Iran, something happened to a woman. Dig a little deeper. I know it didn't occur in Japan, and you probably don't care to know the details. However, those that do will see how that one article relates here, a lot more than the other problems you just listed. All, I repeat, don't need a statue.
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| not a thing but it does take attention away from your fast sinking ship of a argument |
Actually, you pretending or refusing to see the connection kind of makes it into an elephant.
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| If you want to make a statue about how the church abused you and yours, I'd be fine with that too. |
And put that in front of an embassy? How cluttered is the embassy going to be if it has a statue for every perceived wrong a person or group feels has been committed? There is a reason why they have museums. I tend to put history and art together. Here is an example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women
There is a place for everything, statues associated with rape would better be served in a museum. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| If you and yours were buggered by a church... and you decided to put a monument to that near/in front of said church, I wouldn't begrudge ya in the least. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Possibly what he's trying to say is... who are you to tell Koreans what they can and cannot do on their land regarding their issues? |
Yeah, kinda like Koreans and Chinese trying to tell the Japanese what they "can and cannot do" on their own land regarding things like the Yasukuni Shrine  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Care to provide evidence where it is universally accepted in international relations that words like "remorse" and "regret" are non-apologies? |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_exonerative
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=11225&Cat=13
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/08/world/la-fg-libya-nato-20110409
As you can see there is quite a significance attached to the difference between the two words.
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Are you a diplomat?
What the hell are you even talking about? Those are apologies. They're very formal but that's to be accepted in that platform. |
No, but I studied International Relations and we had a whole lecture devoted to the difference between a "statement of regret" and an apology and acceptance of responsibility and how it would relate to International Law.
Seriously if you talked to any diplomat, journalist, or foreign policy expert and tried to claim that those were apologies they would laugh at you. Everyone who deals with the field knows the difference between "regret" and "apology".
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| What would constitute a proper vocal apology? You seem to know so much about international relations so it should be easy for you. |
The Japanese government would pass a resolution accepting admitting past responsibility and accepting it fully for the rape camps and expressly apologize for the action. It would agree to pay compensation and would prosecute offenders. There would be no immunity granted. The Japanese government would apologize and accept responsibility for deliberately and willfully avoiding responsibility on this issue. It would then pledge to ensure full compliance with international standards regarding mass rape by military forces.
I think the U.S. Congress resolution sums it up...
http://www.etan.org/action/action3/02honda.htm#resolution
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| Can you please provide a link to the article? |
http://www.doam.org/index.php/projekte/menschenrechte/trostfrauen/249-pr-mr-cw-abe07
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| First of all Abe lasted less then a year as prime minitster. He hardly spoke for the Japanese government. |
True, a statement by an individual Head of Office is not the same as an official government position, but its rather telling that he thought it was politically wise to make such a statement.
The diplomatic ruckus it set off and the subsequent back-tracking certainly calls into question his future statements.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/
Notice in his apology he used the phrase "apologize for the situation they found themselves in." Notice the lack of acceptance of responsibility by the Japanese Army.
And it appears the United States Congress didn't buy his apology either.
So yeah, that was a non-apology apology. Everyone, including the U.S. Congress knows what a formal apology is, and a statement of regret is not an apology.
Please, don't try to claim "knowledge of the issue" when you can't even tell something as basic as the difference between a statement of regret and an apology. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway, this whole discussion is pretty absurd. We are all tribal to an extent, so I guess it's only natural in such an emotion-driven debate that we would each pick a "team" to be on: some people feel they're a part of "team Korea", and others of "team Japan". The argument really just boils down to trying to show up the other side (as if that's ever going to happen).
I for one would openly count myself on the Japanese side (simply because I personally prefer Japan and in a general sense would more readily empathize with Japanese people than with Koreans). While I certainly do believe the crimes committed by the Japanese military during the war were terrible and wrong, I frankly don't care much about the feigned indignation coming from the Korean government (as if any of them actually give two farts about the suffering of these women 60+ years ago). As far as I'm concerned it's all blatant politicking to score cheap points, as well as a nationalism-fueled excuse for a bunch of people to play victim for money and attention...
Of course the Japanese government realizes this and will never issue a "sincere apology". Anyone who expects such a thing from ANY government is kidding themselves. All governments are basically rotten and unfeeling (by nature) and see the general public as little more than milk cows to be sucked off of and exploited. Expecting any of these governments to apologize from the heart or feel true "remorse" is an exercise in futility.
However, the Japanese government did "formally apologize" (as covered in this thread) and did pay a whole bunch of money to the corrupt scoundrels in the Korean government who proceeded to sign off on it (not giving any to the women in question), so in those terms it's end of discussion. Beyond that the die-hard nationalists in Korean can complain and moan all they want, and while they may (hopefully not) eventually be able to milk some more cash payments out of it, it won't actually change a thing in terms of how people feel... |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There is something more current to focus on...lol |
Guilty for addressing present atrocities (in the making and can be changed). Yes, you got me. Maybe I should put up a statue symbolizing past events (which can't be changed) instead. This makes rearranging seats on the Titanic into a rehearsal.
You clearly have a Japan only agenda, and it's definitely anti-Japan.
| Quote: |
| Seriously you could also have cited NK and its regime going into the future, Famine in Africa, Piracy off the coast of Somalia, US sluggish markets, global warming.... |
Good, and those don't require a statue. I concur.
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| What does that have to do with this thread topic? |
Do you know what the link was in reference to? It wasn't just Iran, something happened to a woman. Dig a little deeper. I know it didn't occur in Japan, and you probably don't care to know the details. However, those that do will see how that one article relates here, a lot more than the other problems you just listed. All, I repeat, don't need a statue.
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| not a thing but it does take attention away from your fast sinking ship of a argument |
Actually, you pretending or refusing to see the connection kind of makes it into an elephant.
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| If you want to make a statue about how the church abused you and yours, I'd be fine with that too. |
And put that in front of an embassy? How cluttered is the embassy going to be if it has a statue for every perceived wrong a person or group feels has been committed? There is a reason why they have museums. I tend to put history and art together. Here is an example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women
There is a place for everything, statues associated with rape would better be served in a museum. |
I will not respond to all the flith you posted here but will instead clear up a few points:
1- I am NOT anti-Japan, I made that CRYSTAL CLEAR in an earlier post. You are the one with the odd agenda here. I am not attacking or defending any country here so put a lid on that crap.
2- Your position is untenable and is also full of hate as you blindly defend Japan. Your shocking lack of empathy is alarming in your all out blitz defense of Japan as your trample over these women and this statue. You can dance around it all you wish but you are pretty much pissing on these women and what they went through to make and defend an untenable point.
3- I am done with this thread because you are not debating, you are trolling and smearing people with crap.
CC, Steelrails, myself and others have all provided clear factual examples and you respond with diversions and try to show you have some moral highground as you eagerly step all over what happend to these women to make your lame little point. One thing IS clear to most sane people in here: you have the agenda and it is ALSO quite clear that if the sides were reversed, you would be ALL OVER Korea for not apologizing. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| you have the agenda and it is ALSO quite clear that if the sides were reversed, you would be ALL OVER Korea for not apologizing. |
You clearly haven't read my posts. The filth you so eloquently used as a label is part of Roman history. You might want to educate yourself so you don't look so stupid.
I was commenting with 2 positions.
1. The statue is unnecessary.
2. Instead of near an embassy, the statue should be in a place like a museum or park.
I also stated the following a while back:
1. Voicing equality for the innocent doesn't mean I am against the victims.
2. Refraining from bashing Japan doesn't mean I am bashing Korea.
I like China, Japan, and Korea equally. I don't see one better or worse than another.
If you aren't anti-Japan, then move on. There is no need for the statue then. Find a way to get along. |
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jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: re |
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| Quote: |
Anyone who knows anything about international relations and international law knows that the words "remorse" and "regret" are non-apology apologies in the diplomatic sphere.
They are a step below an official apology. It is like saying "no-contest" instead of "guilty". It is a way to avoid liability.
So please, spare us the bull about the apologies being real. You're not dealing with morons here. You're dealing with people who understand the nuances of diplomatic statements. |
Now that's the spirit. Get your fingers dirty by attacking me. Nice try. I like your Fox News tactics. What do they call this one? Ah, yes! #2. Character Assassination/Ad Hominem
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| Were the apologies sincere? No they weren't |
I read your links in another post about Past exonerative , non-apology apology, and your evidence about the word 'regret'. So Mr. Schneider is the expert, right? He speaks for ALL journalists, right? His clever 'witticism' does not prove anything. It only shows that your subjective opinion, which you are trying to prove with a witticism, is nothing but your subjective opinion. And yes, I did take a debate class on this very topic. I seem to remember people being on different sides of the fence, but I don't seem to remember seeing evidence that ALL journalists and diplomats were laughing in the faces of all the people that disagree with your OPINION.
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| Unfortunately the comfort women were not considered laborers by either the Japanese or the Korean government. |
They still fall under the umbrella of people who were 'killed' or 'injured' during the war, so the money given to Korea by Japan should have been used to aid these people. I'm so glad the Korean government used that money to help these women...Oh wait! They didn't!
You also provided a link to a page where the U.S. Congress was making some formal statements to pressure Japan. So the big U.S. government said that? Wow, I should follow everything they say, right? Fox News tactic #10. Invoking the Christian God!
Did you read that link yourself? There were some statements in there:
"Whereas the Government of Japan did sign the 1921 International Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Women and Children and supported the 2000 United Nations Security Council Resolution 1325 on Women, Peace, and Security which recognized the unique impact of armed conflict on women;
Whereas the House of Representatives commends Japan's efforts to promote human security, human rights, democratic values, and rule of law, as well as for being a supporter of Security Council Resolution 1325;
Whereas the House of Representatives commends those Japanese officials and private citizens whose hard work and compassion resulted in the establishment in 1995 of Japan's private Asian Women's Fund;
Whereas the Asian Women's Fund has raised $5,700,000 to extend `atonement' from the Japanese people to the comfort women;"
That's a step in the right direction, don't you think?
And I will leave you with some definitions:
re�gret
1. to feel sorrow or remorse for (an act, fault, disappointment, etc.)
re�morse
1. deep and painful regret for wrongdoing |
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