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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversity |
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SEOUL, Dec. 28 (Yonhap) -- Brian had been living in Korea for just over three months when he encountered the unexpected. The ESL instructor, who asked that his last name be withheld, spent a night out with friends in the southern city of Busan and missed the last train home. He decided to go to the nearest "jimjilbang," Korean sauna, to rest until morning. He found a convenient place with an English sign right next to Busan station.
"I asked in Korean if the place was a jimjilbang and made the sleeping motion with my hands. (The clerk) said 'no sleep,'" said Brian. Confused, he went back outside to consult with the taxi driver who had brought him there. After confirming that the establishment really was a jimjilbang he made a second attempt.
"I went back inside and pointed at the uniforms behind the desk and said 'I want' but the man behind the counter said 'no foreigners, Koreans only.'" Still fresh to the country, he couldn't make sense of what had just happened. "I blurted out 'that's racist!' So I left and found another place to stay the night."
A call to the jimjilbang confirmed their policy. When asked why foreign residents are not allowed to use the facilities, the receptionist responded, "I don't know. Maybe the owner doesn't like them." The owner could not be reached for further comments.
Other international residents have experienced similar situations. Korean booking clubs, nightclubs where patrons are introduced to each other in a date setting, have a reputation for being off limits to the foreign community. Message boards also abound with stories of being refused service at restaurants, bars, and even gyms. |
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/n_feature/2011/12/21/62/4901000000AEN20111221007400315F.HTML |
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jonpurdy
Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Location: Ulsan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi |
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In my three years of living there I can't say I'd ever been discriminated against like that. But I'm sure it happens and that Brian isn't making it up. Though rare, it's definitely not an acceptable situation.
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Other international residents have experienced similar situations. Korean booking clubs, nightclubs where patrons are introduced to each other in a date setting, have a reputation for being off limits to the foreign community. |
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This I can understand. Foreigners typically have no idea how the booking club system works. You can't just go in and buy a cheap bottle of beer and hit on women. It's quite complicated and the menus are typically only in Korean. It's easier to simply refuse service than to try to explain how it works to every fresh-off-the-plane foreigner.
At first it definitely might seem like discrimination against foreigners. But it's more just laziness and lack of their own English.
I've found that simply speaking Korean to the bouncers (regardless of whether you've got a Korean with you) has allowed me admission. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi |
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| jonpurdy wrote: |
This I can understand. Foreigners typically have no idea how the booking club system works. You can't just go in and buy a cheap bottle of beer and hit on women. It's quite complicated and the menus are typically only in Korean. It's easier to simply refuse service than to try to explain how it works to every fresh-off-the-plane foreigner.
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So the default assumption is that every non-Korean-looking person is both ignorant of how things work in the country they live in and incapable of reading or having a basic conversation in that country's language? Even most other traditionally "non-immigrant countries" have moved beyond that way of thinking. And it certainly doesn't excuse racial stereotyping. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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This is one stupid business in Busan, however the lack of action against it is unacceptable.
Whilst I am not a lawyer Korea is a signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), further article 6 of the Korean Constitution states that international treaties entered into by Korea have the same effect as domestic law.
As a signatory to ICERD discrimination on the grounds of race is already against domestic law and the excuse that it is a private business doesn't change it from being illegal. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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This seems to be the same sauna Floating World tried to visit. It was later explained by someone who went there and by a guy I know who visited the place after floating story came out that they refused foreigners because they had had "issues" with Russian men having "fun" in the sauna.
Who knows how true that is but considering the location it may not be far from the truth!
It sucks for Brian however but how much would a taxi have been back to his appartment assuming he lives in Busan?
Or checking out one of the nearby motels could have been a solution after being turned away from that sauna\jimjilbang.
The policy of refusal is dumb however but by no stretch is it a violation of a persons human rights, lets not go bonkers here! Complaining might lead to changes however. |
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jonpurdy
Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Location: Ulsan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi |
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| nate1983 wrote: |
| jonpurdy wrote: |
This I can understand. Foreigners typically have no idea how the booking club system works. You can't just go in and buy a cheap bottle of beer and hit on women. It's quite complicated and the menus are typically only in Korean. It's easier to simply refuse service than to try to explain how it works to every fresh-off-the-plane foreigner.
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So the default assumption is that every non-Korean-looking person is both ignorant of how things work in the country they live in and incapable of reading or having a basic conversation in that country's language? Even most other traditionally "non-immigrant countries" have moved beyond that way of thinking. And it certainly doesn't excuse racial stereotyping. |
For the most part, the foreigners that I knew were incapable of having a basic conversation in Korean. It's a reasonable assumption in Korea. I guess Korea hasn't moved beyond that due to the high number of foreigners who just come here for a year and don't bother learning Korean.
As I said before though, once I spoke Korean then the barriers were down. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi |
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| jonpurdy wrote: |
| nate1983 wrote: |
| jonpurdy wrote: |
This I can understand. Foreigners typically have no idea how the booking club system works. You can't just go in and buy a cheap bottle of beer and hit on women. It's quite complicated and the menus are typically only in Korean. It's easier to simply refuse service than to try to explain how it works to every fresh-off-the-plane foreigner.
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So the default assumption is that every non-Korean-looking person is both ignorant of how things work in the country they live in and incapable of reading or having a basic conversation in that country's language? Even most other traditionally "non-immigrant countries" have moved beyond that way of thinking. And it certainly doesn't excuse racial stereotyping. |
For the most part, the foreigners that I knew were incapable of having a basic conversation in Korean. It's a reasonable assumption in Korea. I guess Korea hasn't moved beyond that due to the high number of foreigners who just come here for a year and don't bother learning Korean.
As I said before though, once I spoke Korean then the barriers were down. |
It is surprising the number of foreigners who cannot read basic hangul signs or use basic spoken Korean. The motivation to learn could be hard to find for an average person in Korea for one year or perhaps two. Also to note, its not like Korean is a language that is common in language learning centres round the world....its a pretty off the beaten track language.
Once you learn some basic Korean (just basic reading and low level conversational level stuff) the barriers drop and a lot of confusion simply evaporates.
Still, a business refusing entry to a foreigner because he is a foreigner is a bad thing, not a world stopping case of human rights violation but still an irritant to the person being denied service. |
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FDNY
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreans are an insecure species at the best of times. So, when it comes to their women at booking clubs they will do their best to co(kblock at every opportunity. If they can make it a law or a rule, all the better. Mighty whities are the opposite. They can go to my country and help themselves to all the women they like. I don't care. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently there are a group of homosexual Russians in that are who have made 'happy time' in a number of public baths and now all foreigners are banned from most of those places, I turned up with a Korean and they said I could go in, bit I felt dirty knowing what had happened and declined.
I would be more pissed off the taxi driver dropped you off in that area rather than being denied access. Imagine if you would have walked in on the 'happy time Russians' the poor jimjilban owner must still be traumatised, I bet he screams every time he sees a waykookin. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
Apparently there are a group of homosexual Russians in that are who have made 'happy time' in a number of public baths and now all foreigners are banned from most of those places, I turned up with a Korean and they said I could go in, bit I felt dirty knowing what had happened and declined.
I would be more pissed off the taxi driver dropped you off in that area rather than being denied access. Imagine if you would have walked in on the 'happy time Russians' the poor jimjilban owner must still be traumatised, I bet he screams every time he sees a waykookin. |
Well there you go then. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Complaining might lead to changes however. |
Author of the article here.
This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. But it has to be constructive complaining.
People have emotional reactions when this kind of thing happens, which is completely understandable. And those feelings are valid and should be dealt with. What isn't ok is when those feelings turn into venom spat back in generalizations about Korea and Koreans.
That is why I included David's part of the story. Sometimes, with gaps in the language, we truly don't understand everything that is happening and may jump to conclusions that we shouldn't.
When it comes to getting actual change here, the best thing anybody can do is exactly what the Uzbekistani woman did back in the fall: go through official channels and get some media attention. Start a conversation about it in the right way when it happens. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Brian had been living in Korea for just over three months when he encountered the unexpected. The ESL instructor, who asked that his last name be withheld, spent a night out with friends in the southern city of Busan and missed the last train home. He decided to go to the nearest "jimjilbang," Korean sauna, to rest until morning. He found a convenient place with an English sign right next to Busan station.
"I asked in Korean if the place was a jimjilbang and made the sleeping motion with my hands. (The clerk) said 'no sleep,'" said Brian. Confused, he went back outside to consult with the taxi driver who had brought him there. After confirming that the establishment really was a jimjilbang he made a second attempt.
"I went back inside and pointed at the uniforms behind the desk and said 'I want' but the man behind the counter said 'no foreigners, Koreans only.'" Still fresh to the country, he couldn't make sense of what had just happened. "I blurted out 'that's racist!' So I left and found another place to stay the night." |
He asked in Korean if the place was a jimjilbang? Or did he just say the word 'jimjilbang'.
Anyone notice this and wonder if the breakdown started with the "I sleep"
The clerk might have thought the foreigner thought the place was either a motel or a whorehouse (and a jimjilbang should be neither). Not to mention that it was apparently late at night and the person was possibly (likely? He did miss the bus, sober people tend not to miss the last bus) inebriated. Not to mention he apparently had no clue how a jimjilbang worked, how to read jimjilbang in Korean, or how to ask how to use a jimjilbang.
That doesn't excuse the reason the clerk gave, but you have to wonder what the full story was. I mean, a guy probably drunk, comes in in the wee hours and has no clue of where he is (a bit like asking if a place sells hamburgers when the sign says hamburgers) or how to use the facilities, asks to sleep there (does he want a motel? Women?), stumbles out and then stumbles back in (was the taxi visible to the clerk? If the clerk couldn't see the taxi and this guy walks in and walks out [while drunk] and seems befuddled), then points at the uniforms and says "I want". You have to wonder what was going through the clerks mind (Will I have to clean up vomit? Is this guy nuts? Will he harass my patrons? Does he understand the rules? Will he follow the rules? How will he be when he wakes up) The clerk can't say the place is closed or full. He has to make up some reason to get this character out, so....
Am I the only one who sees a potential Roshomon effect in this story?
I know, I know, apologist blah blah blah, but there certainly appears to be the potential for things to not be what they seem.
Last edited by Steelrails on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Brian had been living in Korea for just over three months when he encountered the unexpected. The ESL instructor, who asked that his last name be withheld, spent a night out with friends in the southern city of Busan and missed the last train home. He decided to go to the nearest "jimjilbang," Korean sauna, to rest until morning. He found a convenient place with an English sign right next to Busan station.
"I asked in Korean if the place was a jimjilbang and made the sleeping motion with my hands. (The clerk) said 'no sleep,'" said Brian. Confused, he went back outside to consult with the taxi driver who had brought him there. After confirming that the establishment really was a jimjilbang he made a second attempt.
"I went back inside and pointed at the uniforms behind the desk and said 'I want' but the man behind the counter said 'no foreigners, Koreans only.'" Still fresh to the country, he couldn't make sense of what had just happened. "I blurted out 'that's racist!' So I left and found another place to stay the night." |
Anyone notice this and wonder if the breakdown started with the "I sleep"
The clerk might have thought the foreigner thought the place was either a motel or a whorehouse (and a jimjilbang should be neither). Not to mention that it was apparently late at night and the person was possibly (likely? He did miss the bus, sober people tend not to miss the last bus) inebriated. Not to mention he apparently had no clue how a jimjilbang worked, how to read jimjilbang in Korean, or how to ask how to use a jimjilbang.
That doesn't excuse the reason the clerk gave, but you have to wonder what the full story was. I mean, a guy probably drunk, comes in in the wee hours and has no clue of where he is or how to use the facilities, asks to sleep there (does he want a motel? Women?), stumbles out and then stumbles back in (was the taxi visible to the clerk? If the clerk couldn't see the taxi and this guy walks in and walks out [while drunk] and seems befuddled), then points at the uniforms and says "I want". You have to wonder what was going through the clerks mind (Will I have to clean up vomit? Is this guy nuts? Will he harass my patrons? Does he understand the rules? Will he follow the rules? How will he be when he wakes up) The clerk can't say the place is closed or full. He has to make up some reason to get this character out, so....
Am I the only one who sees a potential Roshomon effect in this story?
I know, I know, apologist blah blah blah, but there certainly appears to be the potential for things to not be what they seem. |
I considered those variables when writing this story. I called the sauna and they specifically said that they keep a policy of not allowing foreigners. I didn't even mention Brian's particular story when I asked about it. I just said "do you allow foreigners in the establishment?"
The answer was "No."
I said "Could you tell me why"
Answer: "I don't know. I think maybe the owner doesn't like them."
Edit: I should mention, actually, that my Korean translator made the actual call and asked all of this in Korean for me so that there wouldn't be any miscommunication. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Anyone notice this and wonder if the breakdown started with the "I sleep"
The clerk might have thought the foreigner thought the place was either a motel |
Have you ever been to a jimjilbang late at night? Plently of people sleep there.
They have sleeping rooms.
| Steelrails wrote: |
or a whorehouse
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I'm not sure how "sleep" would be confused with gay sex.
| Steelrails wrote: |
I know, I know, apologist blah blah blah, but there certainly appears to be the potential for things to not be what they seem
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Ummm....no! You're a complete tool. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi |
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| jonpurdy wrote: |
| nate1983 wrote: |
| jonpurdy wrote: |
This I can understand. Foreigners typically have no idea how the booking club system works. You can't just go in and buy a cheap bottle of beer and hit on women. It's quite complicated and the menus are typically only in Korean. It's easier to simply refuse service than to try to explain how it works to every fresh-off-the-plane foreigner.
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So the default assumption is that every non-Korean-looking person is both ignorant of how things work in the country they live in and incapable of reading or having a basic conversation in that country's language? Even most other traditionally "non-immigrant countries" have moved beyond that way of thinking. And it certainly doesn't excuse racial stereotyping. |
For the most part, the foreigners that I knew were incapable of having a basic conversation in Korean. It's a reasonable assumption in Korea. I guess Korea hasn't moved beyond that due to the high number of foreigners who just come here for a year and don't bother learning Korean. |
I won't dispute your experience, or the fact that in general that may be true. However, it still doesn't justify stereotyping an individual based on phenotypic similarities - that's racial discrimination. I could make lots of statements that hold true for the majority of individuals of all sorts of ethnic groups, but to make the assumption that the characteristic in question applies to all of them, or to treat them in an inferior way based on that assumption, would be wrong, and not an ideal upon which a modern society should function. |
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