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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
Korean women married to foreigners are still ostracised and regarded as tainted: koreans still talk about foreigners among themselves with the insulting prefix "nom" and korean males still try to control korean women and ensure that they do not mix with outsiders.
Even acquintances of mine have to justify to other koreans why they are seen talking to an outsider.
A friend of mine gets all kinds of grief from other koreans for hanging out with me. So much so that he pretends to have bumped into me accidentally when they ask. (He thinks I didn't understand that bit of korean  )
My ex g.f. was afraid to tell her parents that she was dating a foreigner for the first 8 months I knew her. When she did her father went berserk.
Even going into a shop with my female co-worker draws attention and questions as to why she is with a foreigner.
And this is the year 2011!
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While I don't doubt that these things happen occasionally, I (and I'm sure a good many others) could share many stories of extreme kindness, open-mindedness and genuine friendship displayed by Korean people. After spending over 5 years in the country, I have experienced only a very small amount of unfavourable incidents. I don't believe this is just good luck on my part either. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
I have experienced this sort of problem recently, as well as in the past. I just take my business elsewhere. I haven't complained to the police yet, but I would like to some day.
Although by far the worst thing I've heard of was a friend of my coworker who was attacked by a man in an alley. He was trying to pull her pants down and rape her. She hit him, injuring him slightly. Some people came out to see what was going on and the police were called. She wanted the guy booked for rape, but the police said that if they insisted she do that, they would, in return, book her for assault/battery.
They let the guy go. This was recently. Korea should be ashamed of its police force. I would have made a huge stink about that to whomever would listen. I know there are people in the top law enforcement offices here that would not stand for that kind of police behavior. |
These are lazy police that don't want to do anything. I have spoken recently to a long term expat. He told me anytime a problem situation arises call 112 on your cell. They can trace your call by GPS or whatever. Police will come to that location. Don't worry about language barrier. They'll get enough English to understand and send police.
This long term expat told me, if the police try to pull crap to start mentioning you'll call the embassy. They would soon avoid the trouble and the hassle. Again, lazy cops that can't be bothered.
Haven't tried myself. But, maybe some others can give some perspective. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| tiger fancini wrote: |
| I (and I'm sure a good many others) could share many stories of extreme kindness, open-mindedness and genuine friendship displayed by Korean people. After spending over 5 years in the country, I have experienced only a very small amount of unfavourable incidents. I don't believe this is just good luck on my part either. |
That is true..and so have I.
Most Koreans will tell you that "Koreans are very kind to foreigners".
What they don't say, however, is that they don't want to interbreed with them.
After thousands of years of invasions, Koreans view their racial purity as akin to their national survival. Thus it is viewed as a great shame to mix blood with outsiders. This hidden belief is certainly held by much of the population.
If you didn't realise that...then you haven't been paying attention. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| I (and I'm sure a good many others) could share many stories of extreme kindness, open-mindedness and genuine friendship displayed by Korean people. After spending over 5 years in the country, I have experienced only a very small amount of unfavourable incidents. I don't believe this is just good luck on my part either. |
That is true..and so have I.
Most Koreans will tell you that "Koreans are very kind to foreigners".
What they don't say, however, is that they don't want to interbreed with them.
After thousands of years of invasions, Koreans view their racial purity as akin to their national survival. Thus it is viewed as a great shame to mix blood with outsiders. This hidden belief is certainly held by much of the population.
If you didn't realise that...then you haven't been paying attention. |
And how, I dare ask, are you privy to this hidden belief? That vast majority of Koreans I know, many of whom are people I've known since we were teenagers, are actually surprised when I suggest that it might be at all significant. The broad consensus I encounter from friends, regardless of class background, is that most people really don't care anymore. Should I start checking the fruit my girlfriend's mom sends me every week to make sure there's no poison in it? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Ok Julius, your response was detailed (slighly demeaning to Korea as usual) so thanks for that.
Still you did not prove your point and now a few others and also GASP people who you have not tagged as apologists yet, have chimed in with opinions that jive with mine in that you are exagerating.
Seriously, I lived in Korea till 2008 (this qualifies are recent right? lol) and have gone back several times since then (more than once per year typically). So yeah I kinda know what I am talking about too. You are partially right in that many Koreans have not had direct contact with foreigners but 42% is not a majority (in simple math terms its below the majority which would be 51%). Also this 42% number in no way proves Korea is the country where people have had the least contact with foreigners amongst all other countries the world over so that was you using hyperbole. Your comment about 5th century behaviors was ridiculous but it fits your hyperbole frame so lets let it slide.
You typicall make claims you have no way of verifying such as: most Koreans (heck sometimes you will as far as saying all Koreans) are...
Lets get REAL here: people in this thread who are longtermers have contradicted your assertions. At the very least that means you have exagerated and have been called out. Be a good guy now and admit you exagerated for style. The reality is far less spectacular and probably is a bit more diverse than you said. Some Koreans care about foreigners, some do not and some yet dislike them for whatever reason that may be. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
I wonder how much the Busan jimjilbang story is anecdotal, considering every jimjilbang rejection story I've seen here has involved a jimjilbang near Busan Station:
1) Central Asian naturalized Korean woman that hit the newspapers.
2) The Floating World.
3) Some poster fact-checking TFW.
4) "Brian"
Are we sure that it's not the same jimjilbang that's rejected all these people? |
Good point Northway.
My money is on the "in the same area" because seriously, the area around Busan Station is pretty darn seedy. It has been that way for decades too (Texas Street which is now a Russian hot spot..yeah ironic) being the center of seedier disctrict. All cities have these areas by the way and being near the harbour does not hurt either. So visiting saunas there is not something I would do considering there are tons of great saunas all over the city. Your odds of rejection as a foreigner in one of those places may increase and this just may be a bad reaction by an establishment that had trouble with sailors for example. However, if you want hot manly love with a romantic bunch of Russian sailors...those saunas seem to be the place. 
As for the story, will say it again: it was written based on a shoddy account by "Brian" and that 20% of the article is horrible and sadly takes away from the rest of the piece which is solid and relevant. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| That vast majority of Koreans I know, many of whom are people I've known since we were teenagers, are actually surprised when I suggest that it might be at all significant. |
Has it not ocurred to you that the look of "surprise" you describe is actually one of embarrasment?
Even if it is surprise, it is surprise that you as an outsider have discovered their little secret.
You're a foreigner. Do you honestly expect them to tell you exactly their honest thoughts on the matter??
Would you also ask them if they like white people and expect them to answer you 100% truthfully? "Oh sorry, we don't like white folks. Oops! I guess there goes our friendship. Oh never mind.".
Duh. Its almost as dumb as that question they keep rolling out for waegs on TV with millions of koreans watching live "Do you like Korea?". What answer do you expect for pity's sake?
| Quote: |
| The broad consensus I encounter from friends, regardless of class background, is that most people really don't care anymore. |
Tell them you want to marry their sister. Take a polaroid.
Koreans seem to think foreigners are incredibly stupid sometimes and that we don't know what makes them tick. In reality they are easier to read than ABC. Their attitudes and prejudices are written all over their faces, in every move they make. A friend of mine once got invited to play football with korean coworkers. They didn't pass the ball to him once for 90 minutes. Presumably the first to do so would have been lambasted as a foreigner-lover in the dressing rooms. Someone as unobservant as you probably would have just put it down to coincidence I guess.
| PatterPHBusan wrote: |
| My money is on the "in the same area" because seriously, the area around Busan Station is pretty darn seedy |
You trying to tell me the only establishment to reject foreigners in Korea is limited to one sauna in Busan??
I've been barred from 2 nightclubs and a health club in seoul based on my caucasian dna. Its not just busan. |
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Landros
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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seriously if you are playing with co workers and none of them pass the ball to you you are either a terrible player or you need to find some different co workers. I guess it might just be my experience but playing soccer with koreans on your side really makes a close relationship.
I wonder how many passes did your friend make to teamates?
anyway I have heard some really raciest sport practices. A great one was hockey. Koreans used to be so embarrassed about their lack of ability that only one forengner was allowed to play and he wasn't allowed to score. lol
talk about cock blocking... |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| That vast majority of Koreans I know, many of whom are people I've known since we were teenagers, are actually surprised when I suggest that it might be at all significant. |
Has it not ocurred to you that the look of "surprise" you describe is actually one of embarrasment?
Even if it is surprise, it is surprise that you as an outsider have discovered their little secret.
You're a foreigner. Do you honestly expect them to tell you exactly their honest thoughts on the matter??
Would you also ask them if they like white people and expect them to answer you 100% truthfully? "Oh sorry, we don't like white folks. Oops! I guess there goes our friendship. Oh never mind.".
Duh. Its almost as dumb as that question they keep rolling out for waegs on TV with millions of koreans watching live "Do you like Korea?". What answer do you expect for pity's sake?
| Quote: |
| The broad consensus I encounter from friends, regardless of class background, is that most people really don't care anymore. |
Tell them you want to marry their sister. Take a polaroid.
Koreans seem to think foreigners are incredibly stupid sometimes and that we don't know what makes them tick. In reality they are easier to read than ABC. Their attitudes and prejudices are written all over their faces, in every move they make. A friend of mine once got invited to play football with korean coworkers. They didn't pass the ball to him once for 90 minutes. Presumably the first to do so would have been lambasted as a foreigner-lover in the dressing rooms. Someone as unobservant as you probably would have just put it down to coincidence I guess.
| PatterPHBusan wrote: |
| My money is on the "in the same area" because seriously, the area around Busan Station is pretty darn seedy |
You trying to tell me the only establishment to reject foreigners in Korea is limited to one sauna in Busan??
I've been barred from 2 nightclubs and a health club in seoul based on my caucasian dna. Its not just busan. |
I'm not "a foreigner" to the kids I went to high school with. I'm a person. I've known them since they could barely speak English, and they're as close to me as I am to them. Alas, you put all Koreans in such a small box that you can't possibly comprehend that one might become close to a Korean in such a way that they're actually your friend. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
What they don't say, however, is that they don't want to interbreed with them.
After thousands of years of invasions, Koreans view their racial purity as akin to their national survival. Thus it is viewed as a great shame to mix blood with outsiders. This hidden belief is certainly held by much of the population.
If you didn't realise that...then you haven't been paying attention. |
I wonder why they don't say it? Could it be the same reason that I don't say that I am 73-year-old Baron who spends my days playing polo and badger-baiting? To whit, it's not true??
I suppose the happy, smiling, generous guests at the weddings I've attended here between a Korean and a foreigner were really seething inside and panicking about their national survival?
Honestly, I think you are over-reacting. If a foreign guy from another country wanted to marry my sister, of course my family and I might have some concerns. Like, where are they going to live, will the culture difference be ok, if they have children then how can the two families form relationships with them? That's normal. But at the end of the day, we would want the couple to be happy together. The vast majority of Koreans I know think the same, because I've talked about it at length with them in classes and socially. Oh wait, I suppose they were lying to me because I'm a foreigner, right? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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OK you've convinced me, I was wrong.
I confess, I invented that argument just for fun. This country has no concept of any Korean "race" nor do they have any ideas about keeping their blood pure. Foreigners have always been very socially accepted here. Trips to africa to find marriage partners are extremely popular and always have been. Thats why Korea is the most genetically mixed and cosmopolitan country on earth. I apologise. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
OK you've convinced me, I was wrong.
I confess, I invented that argument just for fun. This country has no concept of any Korean "race" nor do they have any ideas about keeping their blood pure. Foreigners have always been very socially accepted here. Trips to africa to find marriage partners are extremely popular and always have been. Thats why Korea is the most genetically mixed and cosmopolitan country on earth. I apologise. |
Julius, meet nuance. Nuance, meet Julius. I'm sorry you haven't met before. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails,
Yes I fact checked his story. I told you, my translator placed the actual calls. I was sitting next to her and said "ask (insert question)" and then she did. Not sure where the confusion there is. |
Talking about Brian's story fact-checking. The whole sequence of events just seems off.
While I don't doubt that the place doesn't serve foreigners, I have to wonder if the place is a front for illicit activity. What's the name of this place?
And again, did Brian's story prompt you to write the article?
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| Do you think they remember a specific foreigner coming in and refusing service to them? Nope. Because they refuse service to every foreigner that ever walks into the place. |
And there are many foreigners doing this? I mean most people can remember things if you mention a day and the appearance and give them some hints. Cops and journalists do it all the time.
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| For a week I tried to get in touch with the owner, he would not make contact with me. |
Then why didn't you mention that until you were pressed on the matter. That would seem like something to mention at the beginning.
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There is no arguing the fact that this sauna refuses foreigners. They openly keep this policy so its not like I'm sneakily accusing them of something.
I find it interesting that most people here are trying to discredit Brian in light of this fact. Can you not fathom for a second that he really was rejected from the sauna and it really was because they don't allow foreigners in? |
No, but there were too many inconsistencies in the original story for it to be taken at face value.
For all we know, this "Brian" could be made up and his story serving as a vehicle for the article. That the jimjilbang refused him (or someone) could well be true, but the circumstances just seem...odd...
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| I try to make the point later in the article that its not something to make a big deal over and that maybe we shouldn't be hypersensitive about it. |
So you were writing an opinion piece then?
Again, I agree with your point and the 80% of the article was fine.
But I have this radar for things that smell fishy, and I can't shake it on that first 20%. |
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cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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Steelrails,
Yes I fact checked his story. I told you, my translator placed the actual calls. I was sitting next to her and said "ask (insert question)" and then she did. Not sure where the confusion there is. |
Talking about Brian's story fact-checking. The whole sequence of events just seems off.
While I don't doubt that the place doesn't serve foreigners, I have to wonder if the place is a front for illicit activity. What's the name of this place?
And again, did Brian's story prompt you to write the article?
| Quote: |
| Do you think they remember a specific foreigner coming in and refusing service to them? Nope. Because they refuse service to every foreigner that ever walks into the place. |
And there are many foreigners doing this? I mean most people can remember things if you mention a day and the appearance and give them some hints. Cops and journalists do it all the time.
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| For a week I tried to get in touch with the owner, he would not make contact with me. |
Then why didn't you mention that until you were pressed on the matter. That would seem like something to mention at the beginning.
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There is no arguing the fact that this sauna refuses foreigners. They openly keep this policy so its not like I'm sneakily accusing them of something.
I find it interesting that most people here are trying to discredit Brian in light of this fact. Can you not fathom for a second that he really was rejected from the sauna and it really was because they don't allow foreigners in? |
No, but there were too many inconsistencies in the original story for it to be taken at face value.
For all we know, this "Brian" could be made up and his story serving as a vehicle for the article. That the jimjilbang refused him (or someone) could well be true, but the circumstances just seem...odd...
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| I try to make the point later in the article that its not something to make a big deal over and that maybe we shouldn't be hypersensitive about it. |
So you were writing an opinion piece then?
Again, I agree with your point and the 80% of the article was fine.
But I have this radar for things that smell fishy, and I can't shake it on that first 20%. |
Brian's story didn't prompt me to write the article, no. I made a post about this somewhere else discussing what my motives for writing the article were. You can find it.... here:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=215223
I did mention that the owner couldn't be reached. I thought I was quite clear on that point. If you'd like me to, I keep a log of the phone calls I make on a story and I'd be happy to post it for you if it would make you feel better about this part of the article.
Brian is not a made up person. He agreed to be put in the article only under the circumstances that he not be identified, like so many people who agreed to talk to me when doing this article.
I think his version of the story seems pretty consistent to me, you are just questioning his behavior as a new foreigner and the choice of the location.
But ultimately that is what I am writing about. That although Western foreigners sometimes get discriminated against here, it doesn't happen all that often and when we feel like it's happening, there might be other circumstances that we aren't taking into consideration. I feel the balance between his story and David's words perfectly demonstrated that.
Your major problem with it seems to be that you don't like the Brain character. I think this 20% of the story does exactly what I wanted it to. And I stand by defending Brain for feeling the way he did in the situation. It's not always an easy thing to deal with.
The simple truth is white people from the West really aren't used to having to deal with this kind of thing so when it happens here, especially the first time, the emotional reaction to it is maybe bigger than it should be.
What I mean when I say that I was trying to "make the point" is not that I was stating an opinion but rather making the point so I could contrast it to how Southeast/west Asians are treated in the country. So no, it's not an editorial or an opinion piece, but that point needed to be made so the latter half of the article would make sense.
This has been a really interesting article. I've gotten a lot of emails from it and I'd say it has been about a 60%-40% split.
60% have said exactly what you are saying and adding that I was misleading and that I'm hating on Korea and being dishonest.
40% have said I wasn't hard enough on Korea and that I shouldn't be minimizing the problem.
I knew that writing this article would stir some people up and I'm pleased to see that the hate-mail it generated was divided in opinion. For me that's a sign that I towed the middle line and wrote a balanced enough article.
I'm sorry that you feel the first 20% of it is garbage. I think that has more to do with my writing ability than it does with Brian's credibility. I can see how the way I worded a couple of things seems a little confusing. That was completely unintentional but I stand by it and I'm comfortable knowing that I did my due diligence as a journalist where fact-checking is concerned. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
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This is one of the problems with being a journo.
You only have to make one tiny mistake and it invalidates the entire article, in the minds of many.
Too many tiny mistakes? And your reputation is scuttled.
All of it at the hands of the masses of zealous armchair critics out there, who will ignore the 99% you got right (and all the effort and research you put in).
And all of that is not counting the mistakes that the sub-editor might add in to your article (and he reserves the right to do so!)
*Sigh* At the end of the day, if you have prompted people to think about the issues, then you have achieved something worthwhile. |
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