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Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversity
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PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject:

Quote:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
My money is on the "in the same area" because seriously, the area around Busan Station is pretty darn seedy

You trying to tell me the only establishment to reject foreigners in Korea is limited to one sauna in Busan??
I've been barred from 2 nightclubs and a health club in seoul based on my caucasian dna. Its not just busan.

Where did I say that??? Read what I wrote again Julius. I was discussion SAUNAS IN THE BUSAN STATION AREA, thats it. Never mentioned Seoul, all of Korea, most of Korea or even some of Korea. In your hurry to once again slam away you missread my post. So to be crystal clear for ya:

I am refering to the area around Busan Station, including Texas Street as this area is one of the seedier parts of Busan. Got it now? Thanks.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject:

northway wrote:

Julius wrote:

OK you've convinced me, I was wrong.

I confess, I invented that argument just for fun. This country has no concept of any Korean "race" nor do they have any ideas about keeping their blood pure. Foreigners have always been very socially accepted here. Trips to africa to find marriage partners are extremely popular and always have been. Thats why Korea is the most genetically mixed and cosmopolitan country on earth. I apologise.

Julius, meet nuance. Nuance, meet Julius. I'm sorry you haven't met before.

Hopefully this is the start of a beautiful relationship between Julius and nuance...hopefully. Wink

Sadly his response was low grade sarcasm and yet one more of his now patented hyberboles.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

This is one of the problems with being a journo. Laughing

You only have to make one tiny mistake and it invalidates the entire article, in the minds of many.

Too many tiny mistakes? And your reputation is scuttled.

All of it at the hands of the masses of zealous armchair critics out there, who will ignore the 99% you got right (and all the effort and research you put in).

And all of that is not counting the mistakes that the sub-editor might add in to your article (and he reserves the right to do so!)

*Sigh* At the end of the day, if you have prompted people to think about the issues, then you have achieved something worthwhile.

Wait....are you saying people should avoid mass judgements, simplications and instead apply nuance and perspective to situations???

Well thats interesting considering your oh so nuanced and balanced views on Korea. Oh wait, I see, double standard, got it, nevermind.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

northway wrote:

That vast majority of Koreans I know, many of whom are people I've known since we were teenagers, are actually surprised when I suggest that it might be at all significant.

Has it not ocurred to you that the look of "surprise" you describe is actually one of embarrasment?

Even if it is surprise, it is surprise that you as an outsider have discovered their little secret.

You're a foreigner. Do you honestly expect them to tell you exactly their honest thoughts on the matter??

Would you also ask them if they like white people and expect them to answer you 100% truthfully? "Oh sorry, we don't like white folks. Oops! I guess there goes our friendship. Oh never mind.".

Duh. Its almost as dumb as that question they keep rolling out for waegs on TV with millions of koreans watching live "Do you like Korea?". What answer do you expect for pity's sake?

Quote:

The broad consensus I encounter from friends, regardless of class background, is that most people really don't care anymore.

Tell them you want to marry their sister. Take a polaroid.

Koreans seem to think foreigners are incredibly stupid sometimes and that we don't know what makes them tick. In reality they are easier to read than ABC. Their attitudes and prejudices are written all over their faces, in every move they make. A friend of mine once got invited to play football with korean coworkers. They didn't pass the ball to him once for 90 minutes. Presumably the first to do so would have been lambasted as a foreigner-lover in the dressing rooms. Someone as unobservant as you probably would have just put it down to coincidence I guess.

PatterPHBusan wrote:

My money is on the "in the same area" because seriously, the area around Busan Station is pretty darn seedy

You trying to tell me the only establishment to reject foreigners in Korea is limited to one sauna in Busan??
I've been barred from 2 nightclubs and a health club in seoul based on my caucasian dna. Its not just busan.

And yet you continue to stay here year after year...supporting and validating these claimed prejudices. Rolling Eyes

cfile2

Joined: 28 Jun 2010

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

northway wrote:

That vast majority of Koreans I know, many of whom are people I've known since we were teenagers, are actually surprised when I suggest that it might be at all significant.

Quote:

The broad consensus I encounter from friends, regardless of class background, is that most people really don't care anymore.

PatterPHBusan wrote:

My money is on the "in the same area" because seriously, the area around Busan Station is pretty darn seedy

Julius, you are way too general in your accusations. That is why you are taking so much heat.

This comment is just simply not true. My girlfriend asked her mother what she thought about marrying me.

Her answer? "If he makes you really happy that's good. You can."

No major freak outs, no nothing. I ran into them one day and met them for a brief 10 minutes and, while her father seemed a little shocked, there was no yelling or arguing about it with them after (granted I've been greasing the wheels by sending bottles of Andong soju and baked goods to them every now and then).

And what about all of the inter-racial marriages that do exist here? If every Korean secretly holds this belief, as you claim, then why would any of them choose to marry outside of their race? Probably because not all of them think this way.

I think, for most parents, race is not the most important issue. Your job is a more important factor for them than your race. Can you take care of their daughter? Support a family? Do you show respect for their culture or act like a completely ignorant 병신?

And here's a shocker, most parents the world over would care about these things. If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her marrying an incapable moron with his head in the sand.

And if I couldn't communicate clearly with this person due to language barriers, I'd have some reservations at first too.

12ax7

Joined: 07 Nov 2009

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject:

There's no point in arguing with someone who's obviously pulling your chain. Last edited by 12ax7 on Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject:

cfile2 wrote:

[q

Julius, you are way too general in your accusations. That is why you are taking so much heat.

This comment is just simply not true. My girlfriend asked her mother what she thought about marrying me.

Her answer? "If he makes you really happy that's good. You can."

No major freak outs, no nothing. I ran into them one day and met them for a brief 10 minutes and, while her father seemed a little shocked, there was no yelling or arguing about it with them after (granted I've been greasing the wheels by sending bottles of Andong soju and baked goods to them every now and then).

And what about all of the inter-racial marriages that do exist here? If every Korean secretly holds this belief, as you claim, then why would any of them choose to marry outside of their race? Probably because not all of them think this way.

I think, for most parents, race is not the most important issue. Your job is a more important factor for them than your race. Can you take care of their daughter? Support a family? Do you show respect for their culture or act like a completely ignorant 병신?

And here's a shocker, most parents the world over would care about these things. If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her marrying an incapable moron with his head in the sand.

And if I couldn't communicate clearly with this person due to language barriers, I'd have some reservations at first too.

Good points. Also:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/southeastasia/view/1167390/1/.html

According to this almost 11% of all marriages in Korea were between a Korean and a foreigner.

Now 11% is a small number but it's several times larger than the proportion of FOREIGNERS as a percentage of the population.

Which suggests the opposite of what Julius is attempting to claim.

jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Good points. Also:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/southeastasia/view/1167390/1/.html

According to this almost 11% of all marriages in Korea were between a Korean and a foreigner.

What they don't mention are how many are actually married ethnic Koreans. Probably a large chunk of that 11%. Just some food for thought.

12ax7

Joined: 07 Nov 2009

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject:

jvalmer wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Good points. Also:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/southeastasia/view/1167390/1/.html

According to this almost 11% of all marriages in Korea were between a Korean and a foreigner.

What they don't mention are how many are actually married ethnic Koreans. Probably a large chunk of that 11%. Just some food for thought.

Whether that is the case or not, it remains that many Koreans are marrying non-Koreans. I should know, we participate in the activities organized by our city's multicultural association. The fact that such an association exists, not only in our city but also in many municipalities, attests to the fact that there are many such marriages.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:11 am Post subject:

12ax7 wrote:

There's no point in arguing with someone who's obviously pulling your chain.

It would be great if that is what he was actually doing 12ax7. However, his posting history says otherwise in many, many, many examples....

Los Angeloser

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Location: Korea

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi

northway wrote:

nate1983 wrote:

jonpurdy wrote:

This I can understand. Foreigners typically have no idea how the booking club system works. You can't just go in and buy a cheap bottle of beer and hit on women. It's quite complicated and the menus are typically only in Korean. It's easier to simply refuse service than to try to explain how it works to every fresh-off-the-plane foreigner.

So the default assumption is that every non-Korean-looking person is both ignorant of how things work in the country they live in and incapable of reading or having a basic conversation in that country's language? Even most other traditionally "non-immigrant countries" have moved beyond that way of thinking. And it certainly doesn't excuse racial stereotyping.

To be fair, this applies to the vast majority of foreign teachers I meet here, including most of my good friends.

About the words in bold and your last part "To be fair, .... including most of my good friends."
Nothing like throwing your "good friends" under the bus huh? Maybe you have an inability of communicating to your "friends" all the intricacies of S. Korea since you seem to know all about it. It's a shame really, if only you could do better in this area. The biggest question I have is why do you hang around or have "ignorant friends?"

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners experiencing Korea's growing pains of diversi

Los Angeloser wrote:

Nothing like throwing your "good friends" under the bus huh? Maybe you have an inability of communicating to your "friends" all the intricacies of S. Korea since you seem to know all about it. It's a shame really, if only you could do better in this area. The biggest question I have is why do you hang around or have "ignorant friends?"

Most of my friends have very low Korean language ability. One of my friends has been here for six years and still can't read hangul. Yes, my friends are ignorant of the Korean language, but I'm not throwing them under the bus when it's something that they themselves would readily admit. My Korean isn't great, but it's enough to have a conversation. Theirs is not. Saying that they are ignorant of the Korean language isn't saying that they're ignorant people (unless you're one of the crazies who sees full cultural immersion as the only way to live in Korea).

Due to their lack of language ability, and the fact that most of them don't really hang out with Koreans, they also tend to be a bit ignorant of how things work (and tend to explain away their issues with racism far more than is reasonably called for). Again: I don't ask that my friends like Korea, I ask that they like me. If they don't care about learning anything about this country, I really don't care, I just don't want to listen to them whine when they have problems due to an inability to communicate.

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