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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose I'm coming at it more from an American perspective, where there has only been one instance of an honor killing that I can remember within the last five or ten years. Wikipedia lists two that definitively fall outside the sphere of ordinary ethnic violence.
As for cousin marriage, I actually don't really see it as the horror that many make it out to be. I've had a lot of friends who were Saudi and Emirati and had cousin marriages within their families. Ditto with arranged marriages: I've known more than a few friends who were born of arranged marriages, yet their parents have had long, successful marriages. As long as there isn't any violence involved, I don't see the issue.
Also, just to add, genital mutilation and honor killings are not condoned by mainstream Islam, and are more issues of traditional tribalism than they are issues of religion. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Indeed, serial killers occur in cultures all over the world |
And indeed, misogynist religious based violence towards women occurs in the western world.
How many girls are beaten for daring to sneak out with a boyfriend in rural USA?
How many religious-right parents do bizarre exorcisms and beatings of their kids?
The question remains- Why is it when white westerners do something crazy it is because they are individually insane (and thus don't have to answer for their culture) but when foreign people of color do something crazy it is because of their culture?
Why are they not crazy individuals? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| And indeed, misogynist religious based violence towards women occurs in the western world. |
Presumably you have numerous examples which you can present to us, because then, you might have evidence of a widespread cultural trend.
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| How many girls are beaten for daring to sneak out with a boyfriend in rural USA? |
Probably a few, but you have no evidence to suggest that this is a prevailing cultural trend, do you?
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| How many religious-right parents do bizarre exorcisms and beatings of their kids? |
Any examples of this?
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| Why is it when white westerners do something crazy it is because they are individually insane (and thus don't have to answer for their culture) but when foreign people of color do something crazy it is because of their culture? |
I see logic and reason aren't your strong points. I have already provided evidence that certain cultural practices (eg female genital multilation) are widespread and accepted practices in certain cultures. Your rebuttal to this is to present exceptional (and largely unsubstantiated) cases of white people doing 'crazy' stuff.' Is that really your counterargument? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Presumably you have numerous examples which you can present to us, because then, you might have evidence of a widespread cultural trend. |
So wait, a single example for these folks is all that is necessary to condemn their culture and the immigrants of that culture.
But before the white people of that land are condemned you need numerous examples?
How about the numerous police beatings without cause of minorities? How about driving while black?
And what about the Child sex abuse scandals in the Church? If you can condemn female genital mutilation as being a representative cultural practice, then sorry buddy- Your culture is one that's all about diddling kids.
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| Probably a few, but you have no evidence to suggest that this is a prevailing cultural trend, do you? |
And what happened with the family in the UK is a prevailing cultural trend?
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| Any examples of this? |
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/pastor-corporal-punishment-advice-scrutinized-child-deaths-160004793.html
http://myth-one.com/memorial.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4392336/US-man-guilty-of-killing-stepdaughters-in-satanic-bible-ritual.html
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| http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4392336/US-man-guilty-of-killing-stepdaughters-in-satanic-bible-ritual.html |
Beating people over 22 men chasing a ball seems to be widespread and accepted in the U.K. Sounds pretty barbaric to me. Does that mean a football hooligan represents English people? Because of one hooligan I should condemn all Brits?
So, lets go back to Armistar, was the case where a British officer had 1,500 men, women, and children mowed down a case of him being a "nut" or was it an example of "culture".
I for one call him a nut, because at the same time you had Brits who were appalled.
The same way I call this killing the work of a nut. Because mainstream Muslims are appalled at this sort of thing.
Again, why are white people exempt from having to speak for their culture?
The answer is they should be, and so should people of color. If you were a Pakistani, is it fair for you, the individual Pakistani to be associated with those practices? Why should you be held accountable for that? And there are millions of Pakistanis or Africans or Caribbeans who reject such practices. Why is their culture painted with that brush, but a white person can climb a bell tower, open up on the people below, and he is a "lone nut"?
There's a word for that: Bigotry. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="bigverne"]
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| How many religious-right parents do bizarre exorcisms and beatings of their kids? |
Any examples of this? |
I've actually known quite a few kids who had exorcism-type things performed on them in Assembly of God churches, though I don't think they would qualify as true exorcisms as they weren't Catholic. I've also known a fair number of Christians of various creeds who refused medical treatment. I've known Jehovah's witnesses whose families expelled them for daring to cast a vote, and shunned any other family member that had contact with them. Now, you may say that such individuals exist on a radical fringe, but the vast majority of Muslims I've encountered would say the same about the genital cutting honor killers. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Good lord, where to start?
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So wait, a single example for these folks is all that is necessary to condemn their culture and the immigrants of that culture.
But before the white people of that land are condemned you need numerous examples? |
Firstly, let me state that the incident which gave rise to this thread, namely the killing of a child for being a 'witch,' is not something which I believe is widespread in African communities in the UK. I have discussed other cultural practices (female genital mutilation, forced marriage, honour killings) which are indeed a widespread problem in certain cultures. You then engaged in some absurd relativism by pointing out that Westerners also pratice religiously sanctioned violence against women, but without any evidence to back up your claim.
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| How about the numerous police beatings without cause of minorities? How about driving while black? |
I don't see how this is related to cultural pratices of certain minority groups, but I guess this would be evidence that the police are racist, or that they are prejudicial against certain minority groups. What's your point exactly?
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| And what about the Child sex abuse scandals in the Church? If you can condemn female genital mutilation as being a representative cultural practice, then sorry buddy- Your culture is one that's all about diddling kids. |
Firstly, female genital mutilation is an accepted tradition in a number of cultures. The Catholic Church does indeed seem to have a serious problem with child sex abuse, and I don't see anyone denying that anymore. How this relates to the logic of mass immigration from failed African states is anyone's guess.
And, then you provide a link to a news story of a man who killed his step-daughters in a bizarre satanic ritual.....as proof of what exactly?
Do you understand what the words 'representative' or 'exceptional' mean?
Here's a clue? What percentage of Americans are practising satanists? What is the prevalence of FGM in Somalia?
Last edited by bigverne on Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| So, lets go back to Armistar, was the case where a British officer had 1,500 men, women, and children mowed down a case of him being a "nut" or was it an example of "culture". |
I guess that would be representative of British Imperial 'culture' circa 1919. Anyway, enough of the bait-and-switch. It's tiring dealing with your convoluted nonsense. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| What is the prevalence of FGM in Somalia? |
Probably about the same as people in the UK and US cutting the skin off the tips of boys' penises.
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| I don't see how this is related to cultural pratices of certain minority groups, but I guess this would be evidence that the police are racist, or that they are prejudicial against certain minority groups. What's your point exactly? |
Well then isn't that an example of "bad culture". Shouldn't that be cause enough for black folks to question whether white people are civilized enough to live with them? Shouldn't they then be able to then treat every white person within that frame work?
The answer is no. Because individuals are individuals and there is no reason that they should have to answer for the nation of their heritage.
Again, the core of the issue, is why are immigrant nuts ambassadors for their culture, but white nuts are just "lone nuts", even when they spout off some hideous ideology?
I have to ask, do you think its fair to brand NETs as drunks/rapists/diddlers? American NETs as gun-loving Bushco. supporters? Ban British NETs from a Seoul FC soccer game because they might start a riot?
Or do you treat people as individuals and not force them to answer for their nation?
Why do you have one standard for people of African heritage and a different one for white Britons? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Probably about the same as people in the UK and US cutting the skin off the tips of boys' penises. |
Don't know about the US, but male circumcision is not widely practised in the UK, except among Jews and Muslims. In Somalia, FMG affects around 90% of women. It is therefore a widespread cultural practice.
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| Well then isn't that an example of "bad culture". |
Perhaps, although I would venture to say that the police's attitude to different groups is heavily influenced by their experience with them.
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| Shouldn't that be cause enough for black folks to question whether white people are civilized enough to live with them? |
No, although it might cause some black men to be wary and suspicious of the police.
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| Shouldn't that be cause enough for black folks to question whether white people are civilized enough to live with them? |
If they did come to that absurd conclusion, then I guess they would have to move to a country where they would not have to be surrounded by whites.
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| I have to ask, do you think its fair to brand NETs as drunks/rapists/diddlers? |
No, since actual reported cases of NETs raping and 'diddling' are statistically insignificant or non-existent. I suppose some might have a case in accusing NETs of drinking too much, but that might be a little absurd considering the amount Koreans imbibe.
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| Why do you have one standard for people of African heritage and a different one for white Britons? |
White Britons are mostly born in the UK, and there's relatively little that can be done about some of our less than pleasant cultural habits. We can, however, still decide who enters our country, and I believe it is extremely unwise to import, in large numbers, people from some of the most backward nations on the planet. |
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Blockhead confidence
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| As an Australian, and having seen British football hooliganism, I think Australia should ban British immigration. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| In Somalia, FMG affects around 90% of women. It is therefore a widespread cultural practice. |
Except the people weren't from Somalia.
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| Perhaps, although I would venture to say that the police's attitude to different groups is heavily influenced by their experience with them. |
So its okay to pull black folks over without cause, simply because they are black?
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| No, although it might cause some black men to be wary and suspicious of the police. |
Then shouldn't we adjust the concern to not be people from the Congo, but hardcore believers from the Congo?
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| No, since actual reported cases of NETs raping and 'diddling' are statistically insignificant or non-existent. |
As opposed to the loads of incidents of witchcraft rituals involving death of Congolese in Britain?
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| White Britons are mostly born in the UK, and there's relatively little that can be done about some of our less than pleasant cultural habits |
Ahhh, so its okay for white Britons to say "what can we do to change?" But people of other cultures should be brought into line?
The least you could do is stop trying to hide behind a veil of reason, fairness, and moral equality and instead just come out and say "I don't like them, they are inferiors, and they should all be shipped home." There's no standards, its just you vs. them. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Standards are and should be different for immigrants. As an immigrant you are expected to adopt local culture if you are there on a permanent basis.
If you live in England, you shouldn't be sacrificing people to the fire gods. If some crazy locals are already sacrificing people to the stone gods, that doesn't mean its perfectly valid to accept a whole new group of crazies into their mix. Look, any society has the right to choose who is able to immigrate into their country. Immigration should be based on whether the people being let in will improve life for the people already there, not on whether it will improve the life of the immigrant. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
Standards are and should be different for immigrants. As an immigrant you are expected to adopt local culture if you are there on a permanent basis.
If you live in England, you shouldn't be sacrificing people to the fire gods. If some crazy locals are already sacrificing people to the stone gods, that doesn't mean its perfectly valid to accept a whole new group of crazies into their mix. Look, any society has the right to choose who is able to immigrate into their country. Immigration should be based on whether the people being let in will improve life for the people already there, not on whether it will improve the life of the immigrant. |
Right, so how do you determine this? How do you differentiate a Congolese secular businessman from a whack job? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Except the people weren't from Somalia. |
I know that. I was giving you an example of a widespread cultural practice, which has now been imported into the UK.
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| As opposed to the loads of incidents of witchcraft rituals involving death of Congolese in Britain? |
Do you actually bother reading anything I write? I have already stated that I believe this to be an isolated, extreme example, and not likely to be a widespread cultural pratice among Congolese in the UK (although I cannot be certain of this). However, it is an (extreme) example of the kind of primitive cultural traditions (FGM, forced marriage, honour killing) you will have to deal with if you allow - as the UK does - huge numbers of people from such backward countries to enter your nation.
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| Ahhh, so its okay for white Britons to say "what can we do to change?" But people of other cultures should be brought into line? |
No, there are plenty of social problems in the UK which need to be tackled. I see no logic in adding to these problems through immigration.
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| The least you could do is stop trying to hide behind a veil of reason, fairness, and moral equality and instead just come out and say "I don't like them, they are inferiors, and they should all be shipped home." |
Nice straw man you've constructed there. My argument is very simple: Britain does not benefit from allowing large numbers of immigrants from third world nations and such immigration should be massively reduced. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| How do you differentiate a Congolese secular businessman from a whack job? |
You can't. The only thing you can do is have a strict immigration regime that differentiates between skilled workers, or those in the country for legitimate reasons, and unskilled, uneducated economic migrants. |
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