|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Nice straw man you've constructed there. My argument is very simple: Britain does not benefit from allowing large numbers of immigrants from third world nations and such immigration should be massively reduced. |
Moral benefits are not to be disregarded. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Nice straw man you've constructed there. My argument is very simple: Britain does not benefit from allowing large numbers of immigrants from third world nations and such immigration should be massively reduced. |
Moral benefits are not to be disregarded. |
Moral benefits? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How do you differentiate a Congolese secular businessman from a whack job? |
You can't. The only thing you can do is have a strict immigration regime that differentiates between skilled workers, or those in the country for legitimate reasons, and unskilled, uneducated economic migrants. |
So it isn't their culture then that we should be focused on, but rather their economic status.
I figure the odds of criminal behavior are about the same for Norwegian or Congolese stockbrokers as it would be for Norwegian and Congolese dock workers.
| Quote: |
| I know that. I was giving you an example of a widespread cultural practice, which has now been imported into the UK. |
So what, they're all African, so its all the same?
How are Somali practices relevant to Congolese immigrants? I love how you accuse me of strawmen and then do this.
| Quote: |
| Do you actually bother reading anything I write? I have already stated that I believe this to be an isolated, extreme example, and not likely to be a widespread cultural pratice among Congolese in the UK (although I cannot be certain of this). However, it is an (extreme) example of the kind of primitive cultural traditions (FGM, forced marriage, honour killing) you will have to deal with if you allow - as the UK does - huge numbers of people from such backward countries to enter your nation. |
So if these incidents are extreme and isolated, wouldn't it stand to reason that bizarre incidents would occur with people from any country? You could let in 3 million people from Sweden and I guarantee one family is going to be completely nuts.
| Quote: |
| Nice straw man you've constructed there. My argument is very simple: Britain does not benefit from allowing large numbers of immigrants from third world nations and such immigration should be massively reduced. |
Look, I support restricted immigration in the U.S., same as you in England. But I don't go around labeling Mexicans or saying that because some Mexican does some sort of Dia de la Muerte ritual killing that that reflects on all Mexicans and we should ban them because of that.
Restrict immigration because of the burden on social services. Restrict immigration because of the job market.
Don't restrict it because some whackjob commits some bizarre murder. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Nice straw man you've constructed there. My argument is very simple: Britain does not benefit from allowing large numbers of immigrants from third world nations and such immigration should be massively reduced. |
Moral benefits are not to be disregarded. |
Moral benefits? |
Soulless. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Nice straw man you've constructed there. My argument is very simple: Britain does not benefit from allowing large numbers of immigrants from third world nations and such immigration should be massively reduced. |
Moral benefits are not to be disregarded. |
Moral benefits? |
Soulless. |
I'm serious. What do you mean by moral benefits? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| How are Somali practices relevant to Congolese immigrants? I love how you accuse me of strawmen and then do this. |
You also seem to be a little confused about what a strawman argument is. People from backward, poverty-stricken, third-world countries are very likely to bring with them aspects of their culture which we would find objectionable, female genital mutilation being just one example. The more of these immigrants you have, the more of such customs you are going to have to deal with.
| Quote: |
| So if these incidents are extreme and isolated, wouldn't it stand to reason that bizarre incidents would occur with people from any country? |
I stated that witchcraft was extreme and isolated. I then used this example to talk about other objectionable traditions which are very characteristic of certain cultures, such as FGM, which affects some 90% of women in Somalia.
| Quote: |
| You could let in 3 million people from Sweden and I guarantee one family is going to be completely nuts. |
Which proves what exactly? You let in 3 million people from Somalia or the Congo (or any other impoverished African nation you care to mention), and you're going to get a lot more than one crazy family.
| Quote: |
| But I don't go around labeling Mexicans or saying that because some Mexican does some sort of Dia de la Muerte ritual killing that that reflects on all Mexicans and we should ban them because of that. |
No, but based on clearly obtainable statistics as they relate to incarceration rates, educational attainment, and welfare dependency, it would be very wise of the US to restrict Mexican immigration.
| Quote: |
| Don't restrict it because some whackjob commits some bizarre murder. |
That's not my position. I wish to restrict immigration from such countries not only because I don't think our culture is improved by such wonderful additions as forced marriage, FGM, and Islamic fundamentalism, but because it simply does not benefit us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| People from backward, poverty-stricken, third-world countries are very likely to bring with them aspects of their culture which we would find objectionable, female genital mutilation being just one example. The more of these immigrants you have, the more of such customs you are going to have to deal with. |
So if people in Somalia engage in something, that should reflect on people from Guyana, Togo, Papua New Guinea, Belarus, Mali, Burma, etc.?
Lump em all together?
| Quote: |
| I stated that witchcraft was extreme and isolated. I then used this example |
Call me crazy, but I don't think things that are extreme and isolated should be used as examples for a policy decision such as immigration.
| Quote: |
| to talk about other objectionable traditions which are very characteristic of certain cultures, such as FGM, which affects some 90% of women in Somalia. |
But the people weren't from Somalia! They aren't the same culture or people.
Geez, you can't even look at people from those countries as distinct human beings. They're all a bunch of Africans aren't they?
| Quote: |
No, but based on clearly obtainable statistics as they relate to incarceration rates, educational attainment, and welfare dependency, it would be very wise of the US to restrict Mexican immigration.
Quote: |
No it would be wise to restrict immigration based on educational level and financial status and previous criminal background.
People aren't criminals because they are Mexican. They are criminals who happen to be Mexican.
| Quote: |
| That's not my position. I wish to restrict immigration from such countries not only because I don't think our culture is improved by such wonderful additions as forced marriage, FGM, and Islamic fundamentalism, but because it simply does not benefit us |
So a French dockworker should be let in, but a Congolese doctor or scientist or writer should be denied?
Oh I'm sure you'd make an exception if they could kick a ball... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| I'm serious. What do you mean by moral benefits? |
There is a moral benefit in rescuing people from the humanitarian catastrophes that are the countries from which they come. While you can complain all day about whatever cultural flaws they might bring to the West, many are saved from those flaws due to the fact that they grow up in the West. How many women have not suffered through genital cutting due to emigration? Or forced marriage? Or honor killings? On top of that, a place like the Congo is a mega disaster of a country, and getting people out can often mean life or death. All the above, leaving aside the fact that the West played a pretty crucial role in creating said mega disaster in the first place (Patrice Lumumba, anyone?).
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How are Somali practices relevant to Congolese immigrants? I love how you accuse me of strawmen and then do this. |
You also seem to be a little confused about what a strawman argument is. People from backward, poverty-stricken, third-world countries are very likely to bring with them aspects of their culture which we would find objectionable, female genital mutilation being just one example. The more of these immigrants you have, the more of such customs you are going to have to deal with. |
If you're North American, this is more than likely pretty much exactly what they said about your ancestors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| So if people in Somalia engage in something, that should reflect on people from Guyana, Togo, Papua New Guinea, Belarus, Mali, Burma, etc.? |
Nope, I didn't say that it should. I simply want to restrict immigration from poor, third-world countries, and I was using FMG mutilation as an example of a cultural practice that I would not like to see imported into the UK.
| Quote: |
| Call me crazy, but I don't think things that are extreme and isolated should be used as examples for a policy decision such as immigration. |
Neither do I, although you seem to be repeating this ad nauseam.
| Quote: |
| But the people weren't from Somalia! They aren't the same culture or people. |
I realise that, and I realise that they aren't the same culture or people. My point is that you are likely to gain very little by allowing people from such disaster zones move into your country en masse.
| Quote: |
| No it would be wise to restrict immigration based on educational level and financial status and previous criminal background. |
If you did that, it would probably eliminate 90% of Mexican immigration, so it would have the same effect anyway.
| Quote: |
| People aren't criminals because they are Mexican. They are criminals who happen to be Mexican |
This may well be true, but it is also statistically true that certain ethnic groups have far higher crimes rates (for whatever reason) than others. It may be an uncomfortable fact, but its a fact nonetheless.
| Quote: |
| So a French dockworker should be let in, but a Congolese doctor or scientist or writer should be denied? |
First, work permits should not be doled out on the basis of race, nor have I ever stated this. Most African migrants enter the country under the guise of the asylum system, or are simply here illegally and never deported. If the system was tightened up, the flow of people from these countries would be massively reduced.
As for Congolese doctors or scientists. I would assume they are relatively few, and that Congo needs them a whole lot more than we do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| While you can complain all day about whatever cultural flaws they might bring to the West, many are saved from those flaws due to the fact that they grow up in the West. How many women have not suffered through genital cutting due to emigration? Or forced marriage? Or honor killings? On top of that, a place like the Congo is a mega disaster of a country, and getting people out can often mean life or death. |
All noble aims I'm sure, but with large parts of Africa a disaster zone the potential number of people who could be helped is limitless. There's plenty of space in Norway and Sweden - perhaps a few million Congolese could be moved over there. I'm sure their quality of life would improve immeasureably. But, how would the Norwegians and Swedes feel about that?
But more importantly, it is up to the people in these countries to sort out their own problems. If we allow - in many cases the most able and skilled - to leave, these countries are never likely to reform, and will continue to sink deeper into poverty and chaos. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Nope, I didn't say that it should. I simply want to restrict immigration from poor, third-world countries, and I was using FMG mutilation as an example of a cultural practice that I would not like to see imported into the UK. |
But is FGM practiced in all of those countries? Why should one be held liable for the sins of the other?
If FGM is practiced in Somalia then that is a reason to carefully screen immigrants from Somalia for history of said practice.
But someone from Burma should not be held responsible for FGM if their country doesn't practice it.
And what people do in Somalia is no more relevant to Congolese than what people do in France should be used to the judge the British.
Would it have been appropriate to hold say, post WWII Swedes responsible for German atrocities during WWII? They're both Nordic first-world countries? Of course not, that's ludicrous. What Germans did has no bearing on a person from Sweden.
Please just admit that your Somali-Congo linkage is about as strong as you being linked to Al-Qaeda.
| Quote: |
| Neither do I, although you seem to be repeating this ad nauseam. |
Then why is what they did affecting your judgment of immigrants from 3rd world countries?
| Quote: |
| This may well be true, but it is also statistically true that certain ethnic groups have far higher crimes rates (for whatever reason) than others. It may be an uncomfortable fact, but its a fact nonetheless. |
Economics and educational background are far greater indicators of propensity to commit crime than national heritage.
So wouldn't a smart person and not say, a superficial moron, focus more on screening people based on those criteria.
A monumentally retarded person sees higher rates of crime in Mexico and concludes its because they are Mexican.
A not monumentally retarded person looks at rates involving people of similar socio-economic and educational background and sees a far greater correlation between that and crime than national heritage and concludes that those are the significant factors.
Which are you?
| Quote: |
| First, work permits should not be doled out on the basis of race, nor have I ever stated this. Most African migrants enter the country under the guise of the asylum system, or are simply here illegally and never deported. If the system was tightened up, the flow of people from these countries would be massively reduced. |
| Quote: |
| But more importantly, it is up to the people in these countries to sort out their own problems. If we allow - in many cases the most able and skilled - to leave, these countries are never likely to reform, and will continue to sink deeper into poverty and chaos. |
These two are actually somewhat reasonable. As I said I am for restricted immigration in the states.
But using a single example to represent a people and blame their culture is bad reasoning. They were lone nuts, just the way white Britons have the occasional lone nut. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| But is FGM practiced in all of those countries? Why should one be held liable for the sins of the other? |
FGM and other barbaric practices are not even the most important reason for restricting immigration from such countries. Much more important are totally incompatible cultures, attitudes towards women in general, and appaling illiteracy and basic educational levels.
| Quote: |
| And what people do in Somalia is no more relevant to Congolese |
You completely miss the point. I do not want large numbers of people from culturally backward third-world war zones migrating to the West. Somalia and the Congo both fit that description.
| Quote: |
| A monumentally retarded person sees higher rates of crime in Mexico and concludes its because they are Mexican. |
Yes, but nobody has said that. I merely point out the demonstrable fact that certain ethnic groups (eg Mexicans) have higher rates of crime than other groups (eg Chinese and Vietnamese), even when correcting for socio-economic status and educational background.
Thanks for the responses, but you can surely make your point without relying on childish insults. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Udo
Joined: 22 May 2011
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
White people have been so brainwashed about "diversity" that they will not even act in their own interests when confronted with extermination.
If diversity is so great, try going to a diverse neighboorhood after dark.
If you survive, the cops will chide you- "why are you in this area."?
Reverend�s �kill whites� tweet a shocker
http://www.iol.co.za/the-star/reverend-s-kill-whites-tweet-a-shocker-1.1209656
January 9 2012 at 10:12am
Comment on this story
facebook
ANTI-WHITE RANT: Pastor and DJ Kemo Immanuel Waters says he wont apologise Picture: Facebook
ANGELIQUE SERRAO
A REVEREND used Twitter at the weekend to call for white people in South Africa to be killed.
The man singled out Helen Zille as among those who should be killed.
The Reverend Kemo Immanuel Waters runs a business called the KemoTherapy Institute of Truth and is an active member of Twitter, Facebook and MySpace. He is a DJ and describes himself on his Twitter profile as a preacher, author, poet, father and truth seeker.
From his previous tweets, Waters sounded like an intellectual, spiritual person, who occasionally discussed politics, but not with any controversy.
Then suddenly in the early hours of Saturday morning, this changed.
HATE SPEECH: DA leader Helen Zille says she will lay charges against the Reverend Waters
inlsa
At 1.33am, the reverend wrote: �The only way to end racism is to kill a material number of whites. @helenzille your indifferent and patronizing stance is a double dare��
The tweet caused an uproar, with many responding angrily.
Zille said the tweet was hate speech and that she would be laying charges against Waters.
Tweeter @bronwynnielsen asked if he had lost his mind.
Waters replied: �No I have not lost my mind. But it is sad that this is what it takes to give racism the attention it deserves?�
In response to @Sibusisomtungwa, he tweeted: �You missed the gist of my msg� which is the only time a black man is afforded a dignified audience is when he pulls a gun.�
Waters also discussed the ANC centenary: �Happy 100th year anniversary to @MyANC_. You (sic) job is not done� but, a job well done in the past 100 years� You will rule till the rapture�.
Since his rant on Saturday, Waters has received many death threats. He said he had received five phone calls yesterday morning from people wanting to kill him.
�All the people who gave me death threats have a racist undertone. Someone, a boer, said to me that everyone close to me will die,� Waters said.
�I will never back down. I will never take it back and I will never apologise,� he added.
Waters said he had been upset after his family had been made to sit at the bar in a busy restaurant in Camps Bay, Cape Town, for half an hour.
�In Joburg, you can go anywhere and you feel welcome.�
Waters said he would never kill anyone but knew black people who would. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Much more important are totally incompatible cultures, attitudes towards women in general, and appaling illiteracy and basic educational levels. |
So wouldn't it make sense then to perhaps restrict immigration based on education and not national origin.
And do all Congolese hold those beliefs? Do all Britons hold monolithic beliefs? Do all Haitians?
| Quote: |
| I do not want large numbers of people from culturally backward third-world war zones migrating to the West. Somalia and the Congo both fit that description. |
So its not because of the content of their character, its because of their nation of origin.
You don't know that Somali's or Congolese's beliefs, morals and values. You've never met them. How can you judge them? You know some of them are (gasp!) better people than you.
| Quote: |
| even when correcting for socio-economic status and educational background |
But educated, rich Mexicans have lower rates of crime than poor whites. So we should not allow in poor whites and prefer rich Mexicans. It should be based on education and income.
And guess what, while the odds may be slightly in favor of a rich white vs. a rich Mexican, why is that really sufficient cause to ban all people immigrating from that country?
| Quote: |
| If diversity is so great, try going to a diverse neighboorhood after dark. |
I lived in one, its called Ann Arbor, MI. It was a suburban neighborhood that had people from Africa, East Asia, the Middle East, Middle America, "Urban" America, Europe, and India all side by side.
As for the benefits of diversity you see it in Ann Arbor's accomplishments and its reputation. You also see it in kids who go to the schools and are far more prepared for the global world and acquainted with the customs there than kids in more "pure" neighborhoods. Yes, Ramadan was a major holiday, and gasp! The large numbers of Jewish and Muslim kids got along and no one was afraid of the local Mosque.
People BBQd and sent their kids to the same schools. Doors were left unlocked and people shoveled each others sidewalks.
The key was everyone was middle class and professional and their kids had college aspirations.
Now there was another neighborhood in SE Michigan called Rochester Hills. My roommate, a black man and a firefighter, got pulled over for no reason visiting a white friend. He even had the Firefighter decal and everything. Every time he goes and visits that friend he gets pulled over.
Now there is also the Cass Corridor, which is like 99% African-American and neither him nor I, nor most people have any interest in walking through there at night.
But then there is also Breathitt County, KY which another one of my friends is from, and its almost all white, and its just as nasty as the Cass Corridor. You certainly don't want to wander through there.
What do Breathitt County and the Cass Corridor have in common? Low education, high poverty.
Focus on poverty and education, not race. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You don't know that Somali's or Congolese's beliefs, morals and values. You've never met them. How can you judge them? You know some of them are (gasp!) better people than you. |
As I have shown you, in the example of Somalia, some 90% of women are subject to FGM. This allows me to make certain generalizations about that country. That should tell you something about Somali beliefs regarding women and how they are viewed. Now, this may be a huge generalization, and does not account for the myriad of Somali views on gender relations, but I am quite comfortable with saying that Somali views on gender relations are rather, medieval, compared to those of the West.
But I agree with you that immigration should be based on a very strict criteria of whether someone is qualified to work in a country. If this was strictly enforced, and the asylum system reformed, it would have the effect of reducing immigration from such countries to close to zero. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
