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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
| He made young children stand outside in the freezing cold Winter?? That's abuse. Not teaching. |
He made HIS kids stand outside. And that's not abuse, it's discipline. Would you rather he spanked them? Shouted at them?
With all their long underwear and sweaters they were fine. OUtside his apartment, in the hallway. Not outside barefoot in the snow. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| naturegirl321 wrote: |
| eamo wrote: |
| He made young children stand outside in the freezing cold Winter?? That's abuse. Not teaching. |
He made HIS kids stand outside. And that's not abuse, it's discipline. Would you rather he spanked them? Shouted at them?
With all their long underwear and sweaters they were fine. OUtside his apartment, in the hallway. Not outside barefoot in the snow. |
You don't have to spank, shout or make kids stand outside in the cold!! There are many kind methods of discipline. Reward and incentive schemes spring to mind. Persuasion works too. Making examples. Teaching right and wrong.
It doesn't really matter if they were actually cold or not. It's just a cruel and psychologically damaging form of punishment. Where I come from, no one would dream of doing that to their kids. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:21 am Post subject: |
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What can I say, he was from NZ. It worked after the first couple of times.
Lack of discipline is an issue: back home in schools teachers have no power. I'm not advocating physical punishment at all. BUt I am saying that my mom teaches in a primary school and regularly gets kids saying to her, "Make me" or "What are you going to do if I don't?" When she asks them to stand up or open their books.
Kids have way too much power and they know it. You can't even touch a kid in public schools in my state. If they fall down, you can't help them up. You can't shake their hands, you can't give them high fives.
It's getting out of control.
eamo, do you have kids? What would you do after you tried talking to them? gold stars? treats? pizza? |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:25 am Post subject: |
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I have a 3 year old daughter who is doing just fine in terms of discipline......we use a variety of non-physical methods to keep her in line.
Do you have kids? Would you put your son or daughter out in a cold hallway? I wouldn't do that to my daughter in a million years. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
I have a 3 year old daughter who is doing just fine in terms of discipline......we use a variety of non-physical methods to keep her in line.
Do you have kids? Would you put your son or daughter out in a cold hallway? I wouldn't do that to my daughter in a million years. |
Yep, my little bug is strapped to my chest right now.  I'll pay for it though, four hour nap means she'll be up all night. That's all right. It's worth it.
In a cold hallway, probably not. In the corner, yep. I'm a push over though. When my puppy would pee on the floor I would pick her up tell her no, put her on the patio and she'd whinge and I'd last about 10 seconds before I opened the door and picked her up and apologised for putting her outside.
When push comes to shove, cold hallways are better than being smacked though. And you do know there are parents who wouldn't hestitate to smack their child across the face. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Spanking and putting your kid out in a hallway is basically the same thing. Physical punishment.
I've been around children all my life and have seen what works and what doesn't. Keeping a kid in line through fear of physical punishment leads to a resentful and distanced teenager.
Teaching right and wrong from an early age and rewarding good behaviour works much better. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Captain Corea"]
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| I'm not here to defend the guy or anything, but just to clear something up... His Korean was reasonable. He was not one of those guys that could barely function here. |
Thank you for clarifying that. What do you mean by reasonable? I was saying that if one seeks to be able to converse with one's children who are fluent in Korean, then one could work that much harder to learn Korean. The easier option is to take them out of the country and go home. It's not a wrong or right answer.
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| When I read the article, I take away from it that he saw the direction his children's language ability was heading, and made a choice to change it. |
It's the easier approach, and, perhaps, he didn't feel he really had the motivation to push himself that much harder to learn more Korean, which is one of the hardest languages out there. My Korean is somewhat basic, but I am not married to Korean; I don't have Korean in-laws I need to communicate with. That might make me more motivated to study Korean, but so many people have a hard time imparting their native language (English in this case) to their children when they're out of their environment. For example, I know a busy engineer friend originally from Jordan and married to a Croatian-American. He has a hard time getting his children learning his language and properly coming up with ways to get them up-to-speed on it. Maybe I sound hard on the guy. It just didn't sound he pushed himself to where he would be great at Korean.
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| Could he have done that here in Korea? Sure, I suppose so. Others have, I'm sure. But it was one Man's observation about what he was seeing in his family. |
And do you think he was afraid he was going to somehow feel like an outsider in his family based on his conception of his world?
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We can try to judge all we want, but...what's the point? Perhaps instead of judging, we might try sharing how we've handled similar things.
How did you handle multiple languages in your home? What do you think worked better for you vs what didn't? Did you notice swings in your child's preference at different ages?
Maybe that might be a better way to head than to play Monday morning quarterback on a guy's life decisions. |
I do have cousins who are perfectly bilingual, but the father had mastered the mother's language, more or less. It's not easy. What's the solution?
Making a point to learn Korean and finding the most effective ways to do so, putting the time, effort, and investment needed to do so. I don't think education is better in North America if that's what he said only in certain elite areas, maybe. When it comes to math, we're not so good. When it comes to critical thinking, I would say we do better. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
Spanking and putting your kid out in a hallway is basically the same thing. Physical punishment.
I've been around children all my life and have seen what works and what doesn't. Keeping a kid in line through fear of physical punishment leads to a resentful and distanced teenager.
Teaching right and wrong from an early age and rewarding good behaviour works much better. |
Having been spanked as a child, I can say that it wasn't the physical part, it was more like a pat, it was more the shame.
I agree with positive reinforcement, but bad things also must be punished. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| naturegirl321 wrote: |
| eamo wrote: |
Spanking and putting your kid out in a hallway is basically the same thing. Physical punishment.
I've been around children all my life and have seen what works and what doesn't. Keeping a kid in line through fear of physical punishment leads to a resentful and distanced teenager.
Teaching right and wrong from an early age and rewarding good behaviour works much better. |
Having been spanked as a child, I can say that it wasn't the physical part, it was more like a pat, it was more the shame.
I agree with positive reinforcement, but bad things also must be punished. |
I agree with him that putting your child out in the cold is somewhat cruel.
It seems excessive to me. It's not like a pat, and he probably put them out for a while. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| A minute for the first offense. Two for the next offense. In the hallway. With shoes. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| naturegirl321 wrote: |
A teacher I worked with had similar issues. They were from NZ and moved to China when the youngest of their four kids just learnt how to walk. The parents didn't speak Chinese and it was getting to the point that the kids starting using Chinese as their native language since they went to a Chinese school.
So what did he do?
Make the home an English only home.
They spoke in Chinese, they had to stand outside fo X amount of time, starting with 1 minute, going up with the number of times it happened. He started this in the freezing cold winter in Changchun.
Didn't take them long to understand A minute outside and soon they were speaking English. |
I'm going to agree and disagree with this.
No child should be punished for speaking the language of the country they are living in by speaking it in the home. That's just retarded.
What are you such a better human being because you speak English?
Standing outside in the cold for 5 minutes is not child abuse. Please. Unless we are talking arctic conditions, no one is going to get hurt. Look at kids, they run around in t-shirts in freezing temperatures. What's next being told to take a bath is child abuse? "Its almost like you're waterboarding them!!!!" |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| I guess it was getting to the point that they were forgetting their English. Anyways, they're fluent blond hair blue eyed CHinese English speakers now. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Standing outside in the cold for 5 minutes is not child abuse. |
I think it's a cruel and unnecessary form of punishment. So, yeah, I think it's a form of abuse.
There was a big scandal here in Korea a couple of years ago because a picture was leaked of a kindergarten which put an unruly 5 year old outside in the cold. It was all over the news for days on end. Everybody horrified. Granted, they put the kid out in only panties.....but the principle is the same. You don't need to give a child physical discomfort or pain to teach them something.
It's like a teacher who depends on corporal punishment to manage his classroom. I think it just shows a lack of skill and imagination. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Well, I guess the question is, was the standing outside the punishment or was it the cold that was the punishment?
If the parent had previously made their kid stand outside the house for 5 minutes, say in perfectly fine weather, then I have no problem with them doing the same in winter.
And even then, 5 minutes in the cold? Really? Couple T-shirts deserve kicks in the nads, but a 5 minute time out in the nippy air is child abuse?
Now panties is clearly abuse. Normal day-to-day clothes, meh.
Pain is rarely the best teacher, but it is occasionally. Remember we are still a barely sentient ape-like species who is subject to our instincts and evolutionary impulses. We may wish that it were not so, but well...we are.
And pain is a great teacher for certain basic things. I do many a thing because of pain. I don't brazenly grab one of those peppers on the leaf tray because of pain. When I'm cooking drunk ramyun I still remember that the cheap pot I have conducts heat to the handles and grab a mitt because of the time I badly burned my hand. I learned not to wear down crap on my car because of the pain of having to spend 12 hours in the blazing sun fixing it and scraping my knuckles, straining my back, and dripping hot grease all over my forearm. I learned not to eat Taco Bell at 2AM while drunk because of the pain on the porcelain throne. I leaned that deep down inside, smoking really does suck because of the seasonal change hacking fits and lung gurgle/burns. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| I think it's a cruel and unnecessary form of punishment. So, yeah, I think it's a form of abuse |
I'm sure your kid is well behaved/perfectly brought up etc.. etc.. but the way you talk about abuse is indicative of a lot of what's gone wrong in the UK in the last few years IMO. The confusion and blurring of the boundaries between what's 'abuse' and what's not, leading to countless law suits, appeals to the European Court of human rights and the fear that Big Brother is watching and you may lose your job or have your kids taken into care at any moment.
It's all down to people like you saying that a kid being made to stand outside for 5 minutes is abuse, a teacher slapping a kid to fend off a blow is abuse, a parent allowing a kid to eat too many hamburgers is abuse, a parent smoking in the same room as a kid is abuse, a criminal in prison who claims he's a heroin addict not being allowed methodone is abuse,a woman whose boss puts his hand on her shoulder is suffering from abuse and takes three months of work from stress. And as we all know abuse = no win no fee lawyers, a big compensation pay out, more non-jobs in the public sector and slightly less freedom for everyone else.
Ok so you've got a kid and you feel protective towards it and all things etc.. etc...but don't let it colour your view of the way the world works to that extent. Do you really think a parent who makes their kid stand outside in the cold fully clothed for five minutes should be found guilty of abuse in a court of law and sent to prison? Do you really think that? Really? Maybe you really do. In which case I really despair of the Western world.
Last edited by edwardcatflap on Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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