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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| How about everytime a phone is stolen? Apple sends a signal to add the number to various carrier databases. In the world of computers, that's hardly a "nightmare" |
What number exactly?
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| Which means the thief wins and whoever deals with the insurance loses. |
that's generally how dealing with stolen property works.
It's not specific to phones.
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| It would be nice if they did. It shouldn't be that expensive. It makes the brand look better and the phone more desirable. |
They already do. In most countries you can track your phone down with GPS. In Korea it's been disabled due to privacy concerns. I don't think apple has any issues with their phone being desirable. You can track it down, lock it, wipe and send remote messages to it.
Not much else they can really do
Apple can do absolutely nothing to disable the phone.
If thieves want, they can instead just jailbreak and unlock the phone. Apple can't do anything to that. An Unlocked phone doesn't get activated. You can flip a sim around from unlocked phone to unlocked phone without issue generally. In that situation a jailbroken and unlocked phone cannot be blocked from the network. Whatever magic "number" you imagine they could block could just as easily be changed by the thief before reselling it. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| akcrono wrote: |
How about gps built into the frame of the bike or a credit card that doesn't work without my biometric info. Those are all much better ideas actually related to what I was talking about that don't make you sound crazy. |
You DO realize that GPS requires power, a lot of power, if you've noticed how much your cell phone battery drains while using the GPS function.
Your credit card would ALSO need some kind of powersource to actively scan your biometric info.
YOUR ideas, while perfectly alright in the world of make believe where anything and everything is possible with a snap of your fingers, don't work in the REAL WORLD.
I'm telling you, its not as "easy" as you say. This is not a Staples commericial, there is NO easy button you press and have things just happen. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| akcrono wrote: |
How about gps built into the frame of the bike or a credit card that doesn't work without my biometric info. Those are all much better ideas actually related to what I was talking about that don't make you sound crazy. |
You DO realize that GPS requires power, a lot of power, if you've noticed how much your cell phone battery drains while using the GPS function.
Your credit card would ALSO need some kind of powersource to actively scan your biometric info.
YOUR ideas, while perfectly alright in the world of make believe where anything and everything is possible with a snap of your fingers, don't work in the REAL WORLD.
I'm telling you, its not as "easy" as you say. This is not a Staples commericial, there is NO easy button you press and have things just happen. |
You DO realize that I was joining you in YOUR "world of make believe" with your exploding bicycles and taser wallets. I didn't say they were workable ideas, just that they were better and less crazy. Nice job deflecting instead of addressing my points.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How about everytime a phone is stolen? Apple sends a signal to add the number to various carrier databases. In the world of computers, that's hardly a "nightmare" |
What number exactly?
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The hypothetical unhackable IMEI that would be required for this to work well.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Which means the thief wins and whoever deals with the insurance loses. |
that's generally how dealing with stolen property works.
It's not specific to phones.
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People die of cancer, that's generally how getting sick works. It's not specific to cancer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it if we can.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It would be nice if they did. It shouldn't be that expensive. It makes the brand look better and the phone more desirable. |
They already do. In most countries you can track your phone down with GPS. In Korea it's been disabled due to privacy concerns. I don't think apple has any issues with their phone being desirable. You can track it down, lock it, wipe and send remote messages to it.
Not much else they can really do
Apple can do absolutely nothing to disable the phone.
If thieves want, they can instead just jailbreak and unlock the phone. Apple can't do anything to that. An Unlocked phone doesn't get activated. You can flip a sim around from unlocked phone to unlocked phone without issue generally. In that situation a jailbroken and unlocked phone cannot be blocked from the network. Whatever magic "number" you imagine they could block could just as easily be changed by the thief before reselling it. |
Please read my idea before responding to it. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| The hypothetical unhackable IMEI that would be required for this to work well. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1749215.stm
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| New IMEIs can be programmed into stolen handsets and 10% of IMEIs are not unique. |
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| Please read my idea before responding to it. |
I read it, and responded appropriately.
Apple can do nothing to disable these phones beyond what they're doing already. You want to take care of your property, take some personal responsibility. Install the software Apple provides free of charge. Set-up the account that apple provides free of charge, and lock and wipe your iphone remotely if you lose it.
Apple isn't going to send out a recovery team to find your iphone for you if you lose it.
It's the telecom operators that block phones. If you want to block your phone in the event it's stolen, write down your IMEI, call KT/SK/LG and ask them to blacklist the number, and then hope the thief just doesn't put a new one on it.
Then thieves will just start shipping stolen phones to China or Japan. Apple has no control over the IMEI blacklist. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The hypothetical unhackable IMEI that would be required for this to work well. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1749215.stm
| Quote: |
| New IMEIs can be programmed into stolen handsets and 10% of IMEIs are not unique. |
| Quote: |
| Please read my idea before responding to it. |
I read it, and responded appropriately.
Apple can do nothing to disable these phones beyond what they're doing already. You want to take care of your property, take some personal responsibility. Install the software Apple provides free of charge. Set-up the account that apple provides free of charge, and lock and wipe your iphone remotely if you lose it.
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And if you read it, you would see that it was a hypothetical.
| alongway wrote: |
Apple isn't going to send out a recovery team to find your iphone for you if you lose it.
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And at no point did i suggest they do. That's up to the police
| alongway wrote: |
It's the telecom operators that block phones. If you want to block your phone in the event it's stolen, write down your IMEI, call KT/SK/LG and ask them to blacklist the number, and then hope the thief just doesn't put a new one on it.
Then thieves will just start shipping stolen phones to China or Japan. Apple has no control over the IMEI blacklist. |
But that will make it harder to get anything out of stealing phones, and thefts will go down. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| And if you read it, you would see that it was a hypothetical. |
Your idea?
Your idea isn't just hypothetical, it is utterly unfeasible. In fact you haven't provided a single real solution to the problem yet insist people take you seriously and that it's somehow apple's responsibility.
| Quote: |
| But that will make it harder to get anything out of stealing phones, and thefts will go down. |
Not really. Smuggling happens all the time. They'll smuggle in bulk to make up the cost. The same way stolen cars and other goods end up getting shipped out of country in some places as well.
Everything you seem to want, more or less exists, you just seem to want someone to hold your hand the entire way through. As I said, take personal responsibility. You lose your phone, wipe it yourself, lock it, call the company and blacklist the number. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And if you read it, you would see that it was a hypothetical. |
Your idea?
Your idea isn't just hypothetical, it is utterly unfeasible. In fact you haven't provided a single real solution to the problem yet insist people take you seriously and that it's somehow apple's responsibility.
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There are chips that can brick the phone if checksum doesn't match. There are less convoluted methods of encryption that have made devices such as the psp go practically unhackable. They could use a longer number than the IMEI which is unique to every device. Don't tell me its unfeasible, as all of those are possible.
At no point did i say it was Apple's responsibility. I just said they could do it if they wanted.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But that will make it harder to get anything out of stealing phones, and thefts will go down. |
Not really. Smuggling happens all the time. They'll smuggle in bulk to make up the cost. The same way stolen cars and other goods end up getting shipped out of country in some places as well.
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That's smuggling, not theft. Will there still be stolen phones? Absolutely. But to get value out of the theft will require connections, making the average person unincentivized to steal one.
| alongway wrote: |
Everything you seem to want, more or less exists, you just seem to want someone to hold your hand the entire way through. As I said, take personal responsibility. You lose your phone, wipe it yourself, lock it, call the company and blacklist the number. |
I don't want any hand holding. There's a problem, and there's a solution. Usually those two go together. Establishing a proper MIEI format and having global cooperation with carriers is hardly a high overhead operation (can't comment about the bricking checksum chip, but i believe it was used in some Motorola phones, so it couldn't be too pricey), but would go a long way to combat theft. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| akcrono wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And if you read it, you would see that it was a hypothetical. |
Your idea?
Your idea isn't just hypothetical, it is utterly unfeasible. In fact you haven't provided a single real solution to the problem yet insist people take you seriously and that it's somehow apple's responsibility.
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There are chips that can brick the phone if checksum doesn't match. There are less convoluted methods of encryption that have made devices such as the psp go practically unhackable. They could use a longer number than the IMEI which is unique to every device. Don't tell me its unfeasible, as all of those are possible.
At no point did i say it was Apple's responsibility. I just said they could do it if they wanted.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But that will make it harder to get anything out of stealing phones, and thefts will go down. |
Not really. Smuggling happens all the time. They'll smuggle in bulk to make up the cost. The same way stolen cars and other goods end up getting shipped out of country in some places as well.
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That's smuggling, not theft. Will there still be stolen phones? Absolutely. But to get value out of the theft will require connections, making the average person unincentivized to steal one.
| alongway wrote: |
Everything you seem to want, more or less exists, you just seem to want someone to hold your hand the entire way through. As I said, take personal responsibility. You lose your phone, wipe it yourself, lock it, call the company and blacklist the number. |
I don't want any hand holding. There's a problem, and there's a solution. Usually those two go together. Establishing a proper MIEI format and having global cooperation with carriers is hardly a high overhead operation (can't comment about the bricking checksum chip, but i believe it was used in some Motorola phones, so it couldn't be too pricey), but would go a long way to combat theft. |
You seem have all the answers. Well then, nothing more anyone can say to you. Got any other other bright ideas to share with the world? Please enlighten us more. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| akcrono wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And if you read it, you would see that it was a hypothetical. |
Your idea?
Your idea isn't just hypothetical, it is utterly unfeasible. In fact you haven't provided a single real solution to the problem yet insist people take you seriously and that it's somehow apple's responsibility.
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There are chips that can brick the phone if checksum doesn't match. There are less convoluted methods of encryption that have made devices such as the psp go practically unhackable. They could use a longer number than the IMEI which is unique to every device. Don't tell me its unfeasible, as all of those are possible.
At no point did i say it was Apple's responsibility. I just said they could do it if they wanted.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But that will make it harder to get anything out of stealing phones, and thefts will go down. |
Not really. Smuggling happens all the time. They'll smuggle in bulk to make up the cost. The same way stolen cars and other goods end up getting shipped out of country in some places as well.
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That's smuggling, not theft. Will there still be stolen phones? Absolutely. But to get value out of the theft will require connections, making the average person unincentivized to steal one.
| alongway wrote: |
Everything you seem to want, more or less exists, you just seem to want someone to hold your hand the entire way through. As I said, take personal responsibility. You lose your phone, wipe it yourself, lock it, call the company and blacklist the number. |
I don't want any hand holding. There's a problem, and there's a solution. Usually those two go together. Establishing a proper MIEI format and having global cooperation with carriers is hardly a high overhead operation (can't comment about the bricking checksum chip, but i believe it was used in some Motorola phones, so it couldn't be too pricey), but would go a long way to combat theft. |
You seem have all the answers. Well then, nothing more anyone can say to you. Got any other other bright ideas to share with the world? Please enlighten us more. |
How about you act like an adult. I had nothing but constructive posts, to which you respond with immature dribble. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| akcrono wrote: |
How about you act like an adult. I had nothing but constructive posts, to which you respond with immature dribble. |
You provided no real solution, other than a magical "make something just like what you made but isn't hackable, and make apple responsible for handling it world wide" line.
This thread started on a false premise (but not by you):
| Quote: |
| Why does Apple not offer a world-wide shutdown on their phones if they are stolen? |
This is not apple's job, nor can they do this. They already offer the number, but each carrier is responsible for blacklisting it if they want. Different countries, different rules.
but you picked it up and ran with it.
You then tried to put world policing of stolen phones on Apple:
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| If the phone is reported stolen, apple takes it seriously and contacts the carrier. If the phone cannot be located, it gets blacklisted from all carriers. |
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| How about everytime a phone is stolen? Apple sends a signal to add the number to various carrier databases. In the world of computers, that's hardly a "nightmare" |
That's hardly their business or responsibility. There is no reason it should be.
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| Its also a system where thieves benefit, where you lose you info, and are inconvenienced. Also, someone pays for your replaced phone. |
you then say this as if it's not the case in just about every scenario where a thief steals something and isn't caught. That's the way thievery works. Someone takes something from you, you're inconvenienced, you replace it. Why should phones be any different than everything else in your life and why is it the manufacturer's responsibility?
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| I didn't say they were workable ideas |
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| I had nothing but constructive posts, |
Those seem like opposites to me.
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| People die of cancer, that's generally how getting sick works. It's not specific to cancer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it if we can. |
You then start spiralling into absurd and weird logic. Dying of cancer is pretty specific to Cancer. I don't know many people who cut their thumb then died of a brain tumour the next day as a result. It's also not generally how getting sick works (without the cancer part) millions of people get sick every day and don't die.
You then make further strange claims like:
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| There are chips that can brick the phone if checksum doesn't match. There are less convoluted methods of encryption that have made devices such as the psp go practically unhackable. |
The device so unhackable it's got it's own domain with instructions on how to hack it? google psp go hacks I won't link it here since it's illegal 
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| I don't want any hand holding. There's a problem, and there's a solution. Usually those two go together. |
Which you admitted you don't really know if they could work or not. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| akcrono wrote: |
How about you act like an adult. I had nothing but constructive posts, to which you respond with immature dribble. |
You provided no real solution, other than a magical "make something just like what you made but isn't hackable, and make apple responsible for handling it world wide" line.
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I provided a way to improve the current system, and ideas to work on the IMEI (which is not good enough as is). To reiterate:
IMEI communication from Apple needs to be global
itunes needs to be able to deregister phones (to prevent abuse of global system)
Improve the IMEI. It needs to be tamper-proof (or at least tamper resistant). I had real-world solutions there.
| alongway wrote: |
This thread started on a false premise (but not by you):
| Quote: |
| Why does Apple not offer a world-wide shutdown on their phones if they are stolen? |
This is not apple's job, nor can they do this. They already offer the number, but each carrier is responsible for blacklisting it if they want. Different countries, different rules.
but you picked it up and ran with it.
You then tried to put world policing of stolen phones on Apple:
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You definitely didn't read what I wrote. I put the policing of stolen phones on the police. At least twice.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If the phone is reported stolen, apple takes it seriously and contacts the carrier. If the phone cannot be located, it gets blacklisted from all carriers. |
| Quote: |
| How about everytime a phone is stolen? Apple sends a signal to add the number to various carrier databases. In the world of computers, that's hardly a "nightmare" |
That's hardly their business or responsibility. There is no reason it should be.
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Because "a nice thing to do" isn't a reason? Reducing theft isn't a reason? Now that the iphone actually has a competitor, having a product that is less likely to be stolen than their competitors isn't a reason?
You two keep going on about how it isn't Apple's responsibility. So what? We all know that. It's not new information. It has nothing to do with my point: that they can do some things different and/or better, and there are benefits to it. Their responsibility is irrelevant to that point.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Its also a system where thieves benefit, where you lose you info, and are inconvenienced. Also, someone pays for your replaced phone. |
you then say this as if it's not the case in just about every scenario where a thief steals something and isn't caught. That's the way thievery works. Someone takes something from you, you're inconvenienced, you replace it. Why should phones be any different than everything else in your life and why is it the manufacturer's responsibility?
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They should be different because unlike credit cards, bikes, and other things that don't constantly connect to a major network and have GPS features built in, there ARE things that can be done.
And stop bringing up responsibility; its off topic.
| alongway wrote: |
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| I didn't say they were workable ideas |
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| I had nothing but constructive posts, |
Those seem like opposites to me.
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My ideas that weren't workable were an attempt to address pkang and his ideas of exploding bicycles and taser wallets. They were constructive to the discussion.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People die of cancer, that's generally how getting sick works. It's not specific to cancer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it if we can. |
You then start spiralling into absurd and weird logic. Dying of cancer is pretty specific to Cancer. I don't know many people who cut their thumb then died of a brain tumour the next day as a result. It's also not generally how getting sick works (without the cancer part) millions of people get sick every day and don't die.
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Dying of cancer is not specific to being sick. Your thumb-tumor analogy draws no parallel to my point as there is no causation between one and the other. Dying is VERY much how getting sick sometimes works (ask Africa). Fortunately, modern medicine has changed that for a wide range of diseases, which is my point. When bad stuff happens, it its possible to do something about it instead of saying "that's how it is".
| alongway wrote: |
You then make further strange claims like:
| Quote: |
| There are chips that can brick the phone if checksum doesn't match. There are less convoluted methods of encryption that have made devices such as the psp go practically unhackable. |
The device so unhackable it's got it's own domain with instructions on how to hack it? google psp go hacks I won't link it here since it's illegal
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Which was unhackable for almost 2 years (and the ps3 for 3). I can't say difinitively, but I suspect that more people were working on playing downloadable games for the psp go than people working to hack an encrypted IMEI.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't want any hand holding. There's a problem, and there's a solution. Usually those two go together. |
Which you admitted you don't really know if they could work or not. |
But I did have some suggestions and demonstrated ways that could improve the current system. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I provided a way to improve the current system, and ideas to work on the IMEI (which is not good enough as is). To reiterate:
IMEI communication from Apple needs to be global
itunes needs to be able to deregister phones (to prevent abuse of global system)
Improve the IMEI. It needs to be tamper-proof (or at least tamper resistant). I had real-world solutions there. |
No, you didn't. That system has all kinds of issues. It's an extremely high level idea that doesn't even begin to address the logistics involved. Your evidence for developing a tamper proof IMEI lies with a system you claimed hadn't been hacked when it fact it had been hacked.
Those people trying to crack those things were only doing so as a hobby. Criminals have a financial motive, it'll be hacked before it hits the streets.
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| You definitely didn't read what I wrote. I put the policing of stolen phones on the police. At least twice. |
I read very clearly what you wrote. You claimed apple should be notifying the entire world when your iphone is stolen. Twice.
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| Because "a nice thing to do" isn't a reason? Reducing theft isn't a reason? Now that the iphone actually has a competitor, having a product that is less likely to be stolen than their competitors isn't a reason? |
Protip, businesses are not your friend. They're businesses. There is zero financial reason to do this. All the tools already exist to protect your phone, take personal responsibility and take advantage of them.
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| You two keep going on about how it isn't Apple's responsibility. So what? We all know that. It's not new information. It has nothing to do with my point: that they can do some things different and/or better, and there are benefits to it. Their responsibility is irrelevant to that point. |
It's a massive logistical effort to coordinate with every phone carrier around the world. And who knows if every one of them would want to play ball? Some countries may not want an American company telling them which phones they can and can't allow on their networks. Some may want further proof than Apple's say-so that the phone is really stolen.
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They should be different because unlike credit cards, bikes, and other things that don't constantly connect to a major network and have GPS features built in, there ARE things that can be done.
And stop bringing up responsibility; its off topic. |
Yes, it's clear you don't want to have any kind of responsibility for your stolen phone. I can see why you'd feel that is off-topic. There is nothing to be done for the phone that can't be hacked. Chips and firmwares can be replaced.
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| My ideas that weren't workable were an attempt to address pkang and his ideas of exploding bicycles and taser wallets. They were constructive to the discussion. |
Still don't see it.
| Quote: |
| Dying of cancer is not specific to being sick. Your thumb-tumor analogy draws no parallel to my point as there is no causation between one and the other. Dying is VERY much how getting sick sometimes works (ask Africa). Fortunately, modern medicine has changed that for a wide range of diseases, which is my point. When bad stuff happens, it its possible to do something about it instead of saying "that's how it is". |
So you're saying when you lose your phone you feel like you're dying of cancer? I can see why you'd want someone else to take care of that for you. Cancer and losing your phone are two entirely different things that operate in entirely different ways. They're not remotely the same concept
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| Which was unhackable for almost 2 years (and the ps3 for 3). I can't say difinitively, but I suspect that more people were working on playing downloadable games for the psp go than people working to hack an encrypted IMEI. |
By hobbyist, not professionals with a motive.
and still, hacked contrary to what you claimed.
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| But I did have some suggestions and demonstrated ways that could improve the current system. |
Yes, mythical unhackable chips which don't exist, the apple global iphone recovery squadron, and a convoluted registration system that works so well for other industries, like say the games industries. You realize hacker group, even working as hobbyists create server emulators these days to foil game DRM? Creating a fake apple registration server to say to the phone "yes you've been deregistered" would be nothing. |
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spanky1off
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| howabout the singapore solution : include some chemical compound embedded in the chipset that when remotely activated makes the iphone stink permenantly of turd. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
I provided a way to improve the current system, and ideas to work on the IMEI (which is not good enough as is). To reiterate:
IMEI communication from Apple needs to be global
itunes needs to be able to deregister phones (to prevent abuse of global system)
Improve the IMEI. It needs to be tamper-proof (or at least tamper resistant). I had real-world solutions there. |
No, you didn't. That system has all kinds of issues. It's an extremely high level idea that doesn't even begin to address the logistics involved. Your evidence for developing a tamper proof IMEI lies with a system you claimed hadn't been hacked when it fact it had been hacked.
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But had taken a very long time (i.e. longer than the relevant lifespan of an iphone) to hack as opposed to mac address security, which is basically "lets hope no one tries to hack it"
I had low cost solutions that made the system better. If you're gonna argue with that, you have reading comprehension issues. I can go line by line if you'd like.
| alongway wrote: |
Those people trying to crack those things were only doing so as a hobby. Criminals have a financial motive, it'll be hacked before it hits the streets.
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More people want to hack their [device] to play homebrew than to crack an IMEI.
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You definitely didn't read what I wrote. I put the policing of stolen phones on the police. At least twice. |
I read very clearly what you wrote. You claimed apple should be notifying the entire world when your iphone is stolen. Twice.
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In what world is notification = policing?
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Because "a nice thing to do" isn't a reason? Reducing theft isn't a reason? Now that the iphone actually has a competitor, having a product that is less likely to be stolen than their competitors isn't a reason? |
Protip, businesses are not your friend. They're businesses. There is zero financial reason to do this. All the tools already exist to protect your phone, take personal responsibility and take advantage of them.
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Customer satisfaction is motivation. An advantage over your competition is motivation. Again with the poor reading comprehension.
Also, why is "financial compensation" the only reason for people do do things?
| alongway wrote: |
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| You two keep going on about how it isn't Apple's responsibility. So what? We all know that. It's not new information. It has nothing to do with my point: that they can do some things different and/or better, and there are benefits to it. Their responsibility is irrelevant to that point. |
It's a massive logistical effort to coordinate with every phone carrier around the world. And who knows if every one of them would want to play ball? Some countries may not want an American company telling them which phones they can and can't allow on their networks. Some may want further proof than Apple's say-so that the phone is really stolen.
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No it isn't. Every contract to carry iphones could include a section requiring IMEI enforcement. Since some carriers do it, its not a stretch to say that it's an affordable system. It doesn't matter what they like or don't like; Apple has proven that they can thrive on unpopular carriers.
| alongway wrote: |
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They should be different because unlike credit cards, bikes, and other things that don't constantly connect to a major network and have GPS features built in, there ARE things that can be done.
And stop bringing up responsibility; its off topic. |
Yes, it's clear you don't want to have any kind of responsibility for your stolen phone. I can see why you'd feel that is off-topic. There is nothing to be done for the phone that can't be hacked. Chips and firmwares can be replaced.
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No it's not clear. I've never said nor implied that. I just said they could do more, and that there were benefits to doing it. If you think that's saying I don't have any responsibility, you need help.
| alongway wrote: |
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| My ideas that weren't workable were an attempt to address pkang and his ideas of exploding bicycles and taser wallets. They were constructive to the discussion. |
Still don't see it.
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Since it wasn't a discussion with you, I don't care. There's clearly a lot you don't see.
| alongway wrote: |
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| Dying of cancer is not specific to being sick. Your thumb-tumor analogy draws no parallel to my point as there is no causation between one and the other. Dying is VERY much how getting sick sometimes works (ask Africa). Fortunately, modern medicine has changed that for a wide range of diseases, which is my point. When bad stuff happens, it its possible to do something about it instead of saying "that's how it is". |
So you're saying when you lose your phone you feel like you're dying of cancer? I can see why you'd want someone else to take care of that for you. Cancer and losing your phone are two entirely different things that operate in entirely different ways. They're not remotely the same concept
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Holy reading comprehension. You really can't discern a comparison between mechanics and actual issues? I NEVER said cancer and losing a phone are the same. I said bad things happen (i.e. dying of sickness and lost phones), and that when people CAN fix bad things, they prefer to.
| alongway wrote: |
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| Which was unhackable for almost 2 years (and the ps3 for 3). I can't say difinitively, but I suspect that more people were working on playing downloadable games for the psp go than people working to hack an encrypted IMEI. |
By hobbyist, not professionals with a motive.
and still, hacked contrary to what you claimed.
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Not before the next version came out (in iphone iterations). Hence the term "practically", which is not contrary to eventually "hacked".
| alongway wrote: |
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| But I did have some suggestions and demonstrated ways that could improve the current system. |
Yes, mythical unhackable chips which don't exist, the apple global iphone recovery squadron, and a convoluted registration system that works so well for other industries, like say the games industries. You realize hacker group, even working as hobbyists create server emulators these days to foil game DRM? Creating a fake apple registration server to say to the phone "yes you've been deregistered" would be nothing. |
Real chips that do exist, Apple reporting to carriers, and a DE-registration system that I've never seen from other companies (because they don't care about aftermarket sales).
A fake registration server wouldn't affect people who do due diligence, as they would be able to check it THEMSELVES, which is the whole point.
Do I need to bring up reading comprehension again about a"global iphone recovery squadron"? I should start a tally. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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But had taken a very long time (i.e. longer than the relevant lifespan of an iphone) to hack as opposed to mac address security, which is basically "lets hope no one tries to hack it"
I had low cost solutions that made the system better. If you're gonna argue with that, you have reading comprehension issues. I can go line by line if you'd like. |
You have no idea what the cost would be to implement this, unless you care to actually share a cost study with us?
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| More people want to hack their [device] to play homebrew than to crack an IMEI. |
And very few of them are competent enough to. A criminal organization would hire an expert and have it done quickly. Financial motive is much stronger than the motive of a few bored teenagers.
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| In what world is notification = policing? |
They become the authority on stolen goods and it's operation around the world. Sounds like police work to me.
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Customer satisfaction is motivation. An advantage over your competition is motivation. Again with the poor reading comprehension.
Also, why is "financial compensation" the only reason for people do do things? |
There is no evidence that customers are asking for this in any significant amount unless you'd care to share some customer satisfaction surveys you've been doing?
Businesses who make money tend to do things to help them make more money. Every decision is weighed on a cost vs return model. Unless a sick kid with cancer in a wheel chair asks Apple to do this they're unlikely to stray from that model.
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| No it isn't. Every contract to carry iphones could include a section requiring IMEI enforcement. Since some carriers do it, its not a stretch to say that it's an affordable system. It doesn't matter what they like or don't like; Apple has proven that they can thrive on unpopular carriers. |
And yet you fail to address countries who don't want to play ball or who want further evidence, and now you're saying every country in the world needs to get on board with apple's plan. All because you can't take personal responsibility for the safety of your purchase?
It kind of reminds me of that lightbulb joke. How many Akcronos does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Just 1, he holds it up and the world spins around him.
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| No it's not clear. I've never said nor implied that. I just said they could do more, and that there were benefits to doing it. If you think that's saying I don't have any responsibility, you need help. |
It doesn't sound like you want to take any. All the tools exist to protect your purchase provided free of charge. You just don't want to handle them. You can call the carrier yourself and ask them to blacklist the IMEI, but you want apple to set up an entire network with hundreds of carriers around the world to do it for you.
| Quote: |
| Holy reading comprehension. You really can't discern a comparison between mechanics and actual issues? I NEVER said cancer and losing a phone are the same. I said bad things happen (i.e. dying of sickness and lost phones), and that when people CAN fix bad things, they prefer to. |
Face it, your cancer example was terrible, and really out of place. Doing something about Cancer and doing something about stolen phones are on two entirely different levels and philosophies. We do something about Cancer because it ends lives. The only lives a stolen phone ends is a 12 year old girl's.
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| Not before the next version came out (in iphone iterations). Hence the term "practically", which is not contrary to eventually "hacked". |
Face it, you didn't do your homework. Try and excuse it away all you want.
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| Real chips that do exist, Apple reporting to carriers, and a DE-registration system that I've never seen from other companies (because they don't care about aftermarket sales). |
You haven't given us any real chips that exist, only devices which have been hacked.
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A fake registration server wouldn't affect people who do due diligence, as they would be able to check it THEMSELVES, which is the whole point. |
From their point of view it would look identical. in fact as far as thieves go this would be a great bit of social engineering. Someone steals some phones sets up a fake registration server to emulate apple, and then proceeds to sell the phones. Knowing people will attempt to register the phone right away they use the emulated on the modified iphone to capture their apple password, which for most people is often the same password and email they use for everything and begin to steal everything related to that person. Yes, what an incredible system. Nothing could ever go wrong with that.
I hate to break it to you but digital locks often cause far more trouble for legitimate users than they do pirates or thieves.
So after all this time we still have:
1. Apple in charge of policing stolen iphones around the world. With no explanation about how they interact with hundreds of carriers, hostile/indifferent nations
2. unhackable, well difficult to hack imei chips based on the idea that a few bored teenagers are the best the world could throw at hacking something.. this isn't a disney movie.
3. A system ripe for social engineering where the tech does actually already exist to turn this into a nightmare.
Fantastically constructive ideas. I don't know why I ever questioned them.
Good luck with that. I'm sure Apple will rush to implement this as soon as you pitch it to them. |
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