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Question About Contract Clause Legality

 
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deadhead



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Rhode Island, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Question About Contract Clause Legality Reply with quote

I have been working at my part time job as a F2 visa holder for a while now, and they wanted me to start working there full time. They gave me a contract today and it states that I have to give 2 months notice if I decide to leave.

Then, right under it is, " If the employee wishes to terminate the employment contract prior to the date agreed date of expiration, due to his/her personal reasons which are not acepted by the employer, he/she has to pay a fine of the equivalent of one month salary as compnesation for the inconvenience which early termination cause both the students and the company."

As far as I know, which isn't that much, this is illegal. Someone on another board said that according to this section in the Korean Labor Law:

Section 20 (제20조)

제20조(위약 예정의 금지) 사용자는 근로계약 불이행에 대한 위약금 또는 손해배상액을 예정하는 계약을 체결하지 못한다.


This is in Korean though, so i guess I will ask my wife later. Is there anywhere I can read the English translation? The #20 in the English version doesn't seem to mean this.

I want to go on Monday with some kind of proof to get this removed if I am correct. I guess they can leave in the 2 month notice part, but what can they do if I don't give 2 months quit if I get this removed?

Thanks for any help!
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: Question About Contract Clause Legality Reply with quote

deadhead wrote:
I have been working at my part time job as a F2 visa holder for a while now, and they wanted me to start working there full time. They gave me a contract today and it states that I have to give 2 months notice if I decide to leave.

Then, right under it is, " If the employee wishes to terminate the employment contract prior to the date agreed date of expiration, due to his/her personal reasons which are not acepted by the employer, he/she has to pay a fine of the equivalent of one month salary as compnesation for the inconvenience which early termination cause both the students and the company."

As far as I know, which isn't that much, this is illegal. Someone on another board said that according to this section in the Korean Labor Law:

Section 20 (제20조)

제20조(위약 예정의 금지) 사용자는 근로계약 불이행에 대한 위약금 또는 손해배상액을 예정하는 계약을 체결하지 못한다.


This is in Korean though, so i guess I will ask my wife later. Is there anywhere I can read the English translation? The #20 in the English version doesn't seem to mean this.

I want to go on Monday with some kind of proof to get this removed if I am correct. I guess they can leave in the 2 month notice part, but what can they do if I don't give 2 months quit if I get this removed?

Thanks for any help!


Article 20 (Prohibition of Predetermination of Nonobservance)
No employer shall enter into a contract by which a penalty or indemnity for possible damages incurred from breach of a labor contract is predetermined.

looks the same to me.

http://www.moel.go.kr/english/topic/laborlaw_view.jsp?idx=254&tab=Standards

Especially when you take article 15 into account.
Article 15 (Labor Contract contrary to This Act)
(1) A labor contract which establishes working conditions which do not meet the standards provided for in this Act shall be null and void to that extent.

(2) Those conditions invalidated in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (1) shall be governed by the standards provided in this Act.

.
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deadhead



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Rhode Island, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that link!!! I was looking at the sticky in the job related discussion and saw.....

Article 20 (Definition of Contractual Working Hours)

The term �contractual working hours� in this Act means working hours on which workers and employers have made an agreement within the limit of working hours under Article 49 or the text of Article 67, or Article 46 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act.

so what can happen if I am able to get that part taken out but they still keep they 2 months part in and I want to quit early? They can try to prove there were damages and try to sue? I think it would be hard to prove any damages as long as I didn't quit the same day. I imagine if I gave them 2 weeks or so there wouldn't be any damages?

Or do I just sign it as is, then when I quit anytime claim that the contract was in violation of the code and thus void ? How about my pay that is part of the contract? Is that then null too?

Thanks again for the help and any advice!! I really like the school but I want to cover myself should anything change.
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deadhead wrote:
Thanks for that link!!! I was looking at the sticky in the job related discussion and saw.....

Article 20 (Definition of Contractual Working Hours)

The term �contractual working hours� in this Act means working hours on which workers and employers have made an agreement within the limit of working hours under Article 49 or the text of Article 67, or Article 46 of the Industrial Safety and Health Act.

so what can happen if I am able to get that part taken out but they still keep they 2 months part in and I want to quit early? They can try to prove there were damages and try to sue? I think it would be hard to prove any damages as long as I didn't quit the same day. I imagine if I gave them 2 weeks or so there wouldn't be any damages?

Or do I just sign it as is, then when I quit anytime claim that the contract was in violation of the code and thus void ? How about my pay that is part of the contract? Is that then null too?

Thanks again for the help and any advice!! I really like the school but I want to cover myself should anything change.


I would NOT sign the contract as is since it means a labor board tribunal to fix it later when you want to get your money back (assuming you leave early).

In my humble opinion, change it now (eliminate that clause and change the notice clause (since they only have to give you 30 days) or choose another employer.

They also cannot force you to work against your will by any threat (including the threat/coercion of legal action).

Article 7 (Prohibition of Forced Labor)
No employer shall force a worker to work against his own free will through the use of violence, intimidation, confinement or any other means which unlawfully restrict mental or physical freedom.

.
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deadhead



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Rhode Island, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks sooooooo much ttompatz!!

I know how to approach the first part and should be able to get it taken out.

just one more thing about the 2 months . They want ME to give THEM 2 months notice if I want to leave early. Can they do that? Is there anywhere in the labor law that designates how much notice to give? I think I can leave at any time since I am a F visa holder.

If they can require me to give 2 months notice and I sign, what would happen if I left early?

Thanks again and this is my last question about this topic. Thank you.
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Wildbore



Joined: 17 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deadhead wrote:
Thanks sooooooo much ttompatz!!

I know how to approach the first part and should be able to get it taken out.

just one more thing about the 2 months . They want ME to give THEM 2 months notice if I want to leave early. Can they do that? Is there anywhere in the labor law that designates how much notice to give? I think I can leave at any time since I am a F visa holder.

If they can require me to give 2 months notice and I sign, what would happen if I left early?

Thanks again and this is my last question about this topic. Thank you.


Notice clauses are legal and exist in almost every work related contract in the world. If you leave early and damage their business they can sue you for damages. You should try to negotiate a more reasonable notice time, such as a month.

All the F2 visa does is allow you to get another job with minimal paperwork, it doesn't make you immune from screwing over a business (leaving suddenly).
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deadhead



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Rhode Island, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildbore wrote:
deadhead wrote:
Thanks sooooooo much ttompatz!!

I know how to approach the first part and should be able to get it taken out.

just one more thing about the 2 months . They want ME to give THEM 2 months notice if I want to leave early. Can they do that? Is there anywhere in the labor law that designates how much notice to give? I think I can leave at any time since I am a F visa holder.

If they can require me to give 2 months notice and I sign, what would happen if I left early?

Thanks again and this is my last question about this topic. Thank you.


Notice clauses are legal and exist in almost every work related contract in the world. If you leave early and damage their business they can sue you for damages. You should try to negotiate a more reasonable notice time, such as a month.

All the F2 visa does is allow you to get another job with minimal paperwork, it doesn't make you immune from screwing over a business (leaving suddenly).


Actually, this is not even true. All F visa holders are now required to submit CBCs, health checks, etc. The only "real" advantage now seems to be that out spouses control our visas.

Also, I don't think we are slaves, and if treated poorly can be free to leave at any time. I have read on here many times, that people can leave at any time and there is nothing the work can do about it. I don't know if the contracts included a clause about notice however, so I asked. I posted on here a couple years ago about a hagwon that screwed me over, and I was told that I could leave at any time and not face any repercussions (but that school didn't have a clause about giving notice).
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Mr Lee's Monkey



Joined: 24 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the legal requirement in Korea was thirty days of notice.... isn't it?
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r122925



Joined: 02 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Lee's Monkey wrote:
I thought the legal requirement in Korea was thirty days of notice.... isn't it?


In most cases, an employer must give 30 days notice (or 30 days pay) if they decide to terminate employment. There is nothing in the labor law that says how much notice an employee must give to quit.

A notice clause can be legal, and according to the law they can sue you if you break the contract. However... I've been in Korea a long time and I have never heard of a case like this actually happening. I guess it's too much of a hassle to get a lawyer, pay him, prove damages, etc over a couple of million won that may be difficult to prove. You would be taking a risk, but a very small risk in my opinion.


Quote:
If they can require me to give 2 months notice and I sign, what would happen if I left early?


They can't require you to do anything. You can ask them to change it or you can refuse to sign. The decision is entirely up to you.

Quote:
I think I can leave at any time since I am a F visa holder.


Having an F visa doesn't make you immune to contract law.
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Wildbore



Joined: 17 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deadhead wrote:
Wildbore wrote:
deadhead wrote:
Thanks sooooooo much ttompatz!!

I know how to approach the first part and should be able to get it taken out.

just one more thing about the 2 months . They want ME to give THEM 2 months notice if I want to leave early. Can they do that? Is there anywhere in the labor law that designates how much notice to give? I think I can leave at any time since I am a F visa holder.

If they can require me to give 2 months notice and I sign, what would happen if I left early?

Thanks again and this is my last question about this topic. Thank you.


Notice clauses are legal and exist in almost every work related contract in the world. If you leave early and damage their business they can sue you for damages. You should try to negotiate a more reasonable notice time, such as a month.

All the F2 visa does is allow you to get another job with minimal paperwork, it doesn't make you immune from screwing over a business (leaving suddenly).


Actually, this is not even true. All F visa holders are now required to submit CBCs, health checks, etc. The only "real" advantage now seems to be that out spouses control our visas.

Also, I don't think we are slaves, and if treated poorly can be free to leave at any time. I have read on here many times, that people can leave at any time and there is nothing the work can do about it. I don't know if the contracts included a clause about notice however, so I asked. I posted on here a couple years ago about a hagwon that screwed me over, and I was told that I could leave at any time and not face any repercussions (but that school didn't have a clause about giving notice).


That paperwork is a very recent requirement and even if you failed your healthcheck and CBC, it doesn't matter because you have a residence visa (can't be easily deported). Also, if you already submitted that to the Education ministry, you don't need to do it again (so no paperwork like I originally stated).

"treated poorly" is subjective. The only way to legally leave a contract immidiately is though a notice clause or a fundamental breech of contract on the part of the employer. Poor treatment (verbal abuse, etc.) doesn't constitute a contract violation, typically.

The reason employers don't waste time sueing foreign teachers is because we can just run back to our own countries to avoid the court judgement. (sad but true)
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