|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:49 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Adventurer wrote: |
There have been court cases regarding that. There was some rogue unit that was killing Afghans for sport. It was publicized. What stories do we not know? And didn't some soldiers piss on some dead Afghans? These are stories we've heard about. What about those we don't hear about because they weren't recorded? And in Iraq, many soldiers called the locals Hajjis. We've heard about many crimes in Iraq. I don't think the army is representative of the average American population per se. I don't hear of anti-Asian attacks, generally.
My family lives in an area where there are many Asians, and they have no problems at all as far as I know. The racism this Asian soldier was subjected to does indicate that there is a race problem in the U.S., and this view amongst some people that to be American is to be white or black, not Asian or Arab. Asians are a small minority while blacks are a large minority and would gang up on white soldiers who would harass them and vice versa. Once there are more Asians in the armed forces, people would think twice before doing this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers
Twelve American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.
Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven others are accused of covering up the killings and assaulting a recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians. |
That's horrible, but that's war man. I'm not condoning it and I despise the military authorities because they have a tendency of covering things up, but it is what it is. War is hell and this isn't something special to American troops. Also you sourced one incident. Don't make it sound like there's an epidemic of American soldiers committing atrocities in a large scale based on assumption. War sucks and guys go nuts in those conditions. As for the pissing, they were Taliban soldiers. If I was in combat I wouldn't give two craps about dead enemy troops. You're gonna cry about piss on a dead guy who was shooting at you when he was alive?
This isn't just a race issue. Hazing exists in the military and that kid could have been hazed even if he wasn't asian. Race isn't the only reason people mess with eachother. I think the rest of your post is you looking at this from the wrong perspective. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Maybe because many posters here seem to think Koreans are racist and Americans aren't. |
Care to provide evidence of this? |
About as much evidence of that on Dave's as there is evidence for "Ajosshis are all racist" which is peddled as fact here.
| Quote: |
| You're gonna cry about piss on a dead guy who was shooting at you when he was alive? |
I'm pretty sure that the US is bound by some sort of international convention not to desecrate the corpses of enemy soldiers/civilians. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fermentation wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
There have been court cases regarding that. There was some rogue unit that was killing Afghans for sport. It was publicized. What stories do we not know? And didn't some soldiers piss on some dead Afghans? These are stories we've heard about. What about those we don't hear about because they weren't recorded? And in Iraq, many soldiers called the locals Hajjis. We've heard about many crimes in Iraq. I don't think the army is representative of the average American population per se. I don't hear of anti-Asian attacks, generally.
My family lives in an area where there are many Asians, and they have no problems at all as far as I know. The racism this Asian soldier was subjected to does indicate that there is a race problem in the U.S., and this view amongst some people that to be American is to be white or black, not Asian or Arab. Asians are a small minority while blacks are a large minority and would gang up on white soldiers who would harass them and vice versa. Once there are more Asians in the armed forces, people would think twice before doing this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers
Twelve American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.
Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven others are accused of covering up the killings and assaulting a recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians. |
That's horrible, but that's war man. I'm not condoning it and I despise the military authorities because they have a tendency of covering things up, but it is what it is. War is hell and this isn't something special to American troops. Also you sourced one incident. Don't make it sound like there's an epidemic of American soldiers committing atrocities in a large scale based on assumption. War sucks and guys go nuts in those conditions. As for the pissing, they were Taliban soldiers. If I was in combat I wouldn't give two craps about dead enemy troops. You're gonna cry about piss on a dead guy who was shooting at you when he was alive?
This isn't just a race issue. Hazing exists in the military and that kid could have been hazed even if he wasn't asian. Race isn't the only reason people mess with eachother. I think the rest of your post is you looking at this from the wrong perspective. |
Yes, but this soldier was targeted because he was Asian. That was the excuse. Another soldier who was half white and half Moroccan and Muslim got harassed non-stop to the point where he felt he had to leave the military. A black soldier was shot by a white superior officer, and it took a long time for him to get justice.
I don't think racism is that isolated with all those soldiers calling the Iraqi people "Hajjis". War is war, but there are so many accusations of war crimes, unfortunately. Thousands and thousands of Afghan and Iraqi civilians are gone, and depleted uranium was used on Iraqis. Many children are born with deformities in Fallujah. People dropped bombs on Iraqis without having proof that they were enemy combatants. I've seen the video footage of that. You can say war crimes are part of war.
Isn't that what the terrorists could say?
How many white soldiers, back to the topic of racism, have complained about racism in the military? I've never heard of such a thing. The only whites who complained were Jews and non-Jews who complained about overzealous Christians in the armed forces. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaj
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whenever the people I talk to in Korea complain about racism that they've dealt with in the US, they're not angry that it exists, only that THEY had to endure it... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
I'm pretty sure that the US is bound by some sort of international convention not to desecrate the corpses of enemy soldiers/civilians. |
Meh, I'd hardly call that an atrocity like Adventurer was implying. I'm trying to look at it from the soldiers' perspective. I'm not gonna judge guys who have experienced combat unless they deliberately start shooting innocent civilians. Pissing on an dead enemy combatant is the least of my concerns. I know I can't promise to be civil to Norks if a war breaks out.
| Quote: |
Yes, but this soldier was targeted because he was Asian. That was the excuse. Another soldier who was half white and half Moroccan and Muslim got harassed non-stop to the point where he felt he had to leave the military. A black soldier was shot by a white superior officer, and it took a long time for him to get justice.
I don't think racism is that isolated with all those soldiers calling the Iraqi people "Hajjis". War is war, but there are so many accusations of war crimes, unfortunately. Thousands and thousands of Afghan and Iraqi civilians are gone, and depleted uranium was used on Iraqis. Many children are born with deformities in Fallujah. People dropped bombs on Iraqis without having proof that they were enemy combatants. I've seen the video footage of that. You can say war crimes are part of war.
Isn't that what the terrorists could say?
|
In my opinion, war in itself is an atrocity and shouldn't ever happen in the first place. Racism also exists. Hazing in the military exists. That sucks. But somehow trying to imply that the American soldiers are somehow inherently evil is unfair. Also, you're talking to a guy who thinks the US government is just as bad as the terrorists. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fermentation wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I'm pretty sure that the US is bound by some sort of international convention not to desecrate the corpses of enemy soldiers/civilians. |
Meh, I'd hardly call that an atrocity like Adventurer was implying. I'm trying to look at it from the soldiers' perspective. I'm not gonna judge guys who have experienced combat unless they deliberately start shooting innocent civilians. Pissing on an dead enemy combatant is the least of my concerns. I know I can't promise to be civil to Norks if a war breaks out.
|
I agree that to call it an "atrocity" is a bit much. But I would say that it is in all likelihood in violation of multiple rules of conduct and international laws and treaties. Not to mention a bad idea from a PR standpoint. I'd say they should be disciplined, but I certainly wouldn't stone them over it, those are pretty stressful conditions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
I agree that to call it an "atrocity" is a bit much. But I would say that it is in all likelihood in violation of multiple rules of conduct and international laws and treaties. Not to mention a bad idea from a PR standpoint. I'd say they should be disciplined, but I certainly wouldn't stone them over it, those are pretty stressful conditions. |
A good chewing out is all they should get. I never got the big deal over it. I mean people are shooting and blowing eachother up and some pee on a dead guy who was trying to kill people gets people riled up. Aren't we desensitized. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fermentation wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I agree that to call it an "atrocity" is a bit much. But I would say that it is in all likelihood in violation of multiple rules of conduct and international laws and treaties. Not to mention a bad idea from a PR standpoint. I'd say they should be disciplined, but I certainly wouldn't stone them over it, those are pretty stressful conditions. |
A good chewing out is all they should get. I never got the big deal over it. I mean people are shooting and blowing eachother up and some pee on a dead guy who was trying to kill people gets people riled up. Aren't we desensitized. |
No, this should reflect permanently on their record. It should give someone serious pause before placing them in a position of significant responsibility.
Sure, maybe it's urinating now, but give them some more power and no consequences and next thing you know...
One could completely hate the enemy, but even in that case one must realize that things like that can just make things worse, even if they could give a hoot about Afghanis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
