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nick70100
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
http://i41.tinypic.com/2j10oih.png
Explain that picture with what you just told me. So traffic was REAL BAD for just 15 minutes and suddenly it cleared up allowing 3 buses to arrive one after another? |
The situation you describe is pretty normal, and happens in heavy traffic areas all over the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching
From the article.... "Adding more vehicles to the schedule has been proven not to be a solution to the problem."
The idea that a bunch of English teachers could run a better transportation system than people who have spent years studying the issues is simply laughable. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| nick70100 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
http://i41.tinypic.com/2j10oih.png
Explain that picture with what you just told me. So traffic was REAL BAD for just 15 minutes and suddenly it cleared up allowing 3 buses to arrive one after another? |
The situation you describe is pretty normal, and happens in heavy traffic areas all over the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching
From the article.... "Adding more vehicles to the schedule has been proven not to be a solution to the problem."
The idea that a bunch of English teachers could run a better transportation system than people who have spent years studying the issues is simply laughable. |
there's something else going on. I'm going to get to the bottom of it. This "clumping" doesn't just happen during rush hour in heavy traffic. It also happens when there is no traffic. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| The population in the Seoul Metro Area needs to go down, and that means balanced economic development of ALL regions in the country. |
Will never happen, it's just the nature of most countries. The historic center of culture and commerce will take the bulk of the populations as people are driven off the farms. If Korea were united Seoul would easily have 5-10 million more people. It's smack dab in the middle of the peninsula and young people will try their luck in the big city, before they consider returning to their hometowns.
Anyways, need to throw out the USA, Canada and Russia stats because those countries are just geographically large. If you throw in the top to metro areas in Japan Tokyo and Osaka, the number is like 43% of the Japanese population living in to major areas. |
Tokyo and Osaka are 200 miles away from each other-it's pretty safe to say they're two independent metro areas. Korea we're talking about a SINGLE metro area holding nearly half the population. The infrastructure can't take anymore strain. The population HAS TO go down. Moving a bunch of government agencies to Sejong is a good start. I for one would much rather live in Daejeon or elsewhere and commute to my job in Seoul (or elsewhere) if I could do it within an hour. But of course this is impossible at present, so I guess I'll just have to settle for Bundang.
Last edited by motiontodismiss on Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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noobteacher
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| nick70100 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
http://i41.tinypic.com/2j10oih.png
Explain that picture with what you just told me. So traffic was REAL BAD for just 15 minutes and suddenly it cleared up allowing 3 buses to arrive one after another? |
The situation you describe is pretty normal, and happens in heavy traffic areas all over the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching
From the article.... "Adding more vehicles to the schedule has been proven not to be a solution to the problem."
The idea that a bunch of English teachers could run a better transportation system than people who have spent years studying the issues is simply laughable. |
there's something else going on. I'm going to get to the bottom of it. This "clumping" doesn't just happen during rush hour in heavy traffic. It also happens when there is no traffic. |
You're right that it doesn't just happen during heavy traffic and it isn't just Seoul. In the city I used to live in, I used to get so frustrated because if I missed one bus that was going to the area I wanted to go, I would have to wait for at least 10 mins for the next to show up. When it finally does come, suddenly 5 more buses going to the same area of town show up one right behind the other. Happens all the time and can't be blamed on traffic. Hope you get to the bottom of it haha |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
Its a simple idea really...
Have the buses and trains run at consistent intervals. That way, you won't have a bus or train packed full of people, while the one right behind it is empty.
SHOCK! |
They do that. Trains and buses all start at staggered intervals. The problem is traffic and people jerking around at stations. They can't compensate for that. I've got a trip I regularly take, it normally takes 15 minutes on the bus. However, sometimes the traffic is bad and it takes 45 minutes. What would you like them to do? Air lift the bus to the next stop?
I find the trains usually are less off the schedule (it's a closed system, unless someone falls in a door and really holds a train up)
They can make up the time. The train's speed limit is nowhere near their max safe speed, so it can be adjusted.
| Quote: |
| But it was deemed to be unprofitable. So they decided to run less trains. Now its nose to armpit the whole way. |
During rushhour you will see trains every 2 minutes. It's hard to get more frequent without slowing things down. |
http://i41.tinypic.com/2j10oih.png
Explain that picture with what you just told me. So traffic was REAL BAD for just 15 minutes and suddenly it cleared up allowing 3 buses to arrive one after another? |
Yes actually. Bus routes are often quite long and cover a very wide area.
1) it's rush hour = more frequent buses but more frequent traffic
2) there is likely a bottleneck somewhere on the route that causes the buses to bunch up. They may all get slammed getting into an area, but then find they're able to get through quicker. a lot can happen to the traffic in an area in 30 minutes. If the traffic was heavy when the first bus arrived, 20 minutes later by the time the third bus arrived traffic may have been clearing up and he was able to get through much quicker.
I've taken the 4212 and it goes through some heavy areas, including a busy bridge. |
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chuckster
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| motiontodismiss wrote: |
It's not only that, but it's the fact that the Greater Seoul Metro Area is deliberately and permanently overpopulated. Too many people.
The population in the Seoul Metro Area needs to go down, and that means balanced economic development of ALL regions in the country.
Overcrowded subways and strain on infrastructure is what happens when you have half the entire country's population living in a single city.
Just as a reference, Greater Tokyo's population is 25% of the entire population of Japan. Greater London/Paris are both around 20%. Greater Toronto ~13%. Moscow around 12%. Greater NY is ~7%. Greater Beijing/Shanghai combined are like 2%.
Yes I realize some of those cities aren't comparable to Seoul, being the economic hub and capital (compares better to London/Paris/Tokyo though), but 20 million in an area the size of Rhode Island is the root cause of most problems in Seoul. |
Some food for thought -
Do you know how Korea was able to develop from one of the poorest nations in the world after the Korean War to where it is today? Well, it was the focus on a single economic hub.
Also, the only country with a bigger population and higher density than SK is Bangladesh. That should help you understand why it's conceivable that Seoul has so many people - there aren't that many places to put the people. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density)
The focus on Greater Seoul is also one of the reasons you have some kicka$$ Internet speeds.
Sadly, when the Kim DJ and the Roh MH governments tried to decentralize the economy (one method was a plan to relocate the capital near Daejeon) had all the rich people going bonkers. If you reduced the size of the population here, the price of real estate would seriously fall and lower their net wealth. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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I really think concentrating everything in Seoul does more harm at this point than good and it's time to decentralize. Quality of life would go up a whole lot if people would just spread out. There's no reason, for example, for the Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries to be located in Seoul-most maritime affairs occur in Busan. And I really don't get the reason the oil companies have to have their HQ in Seoul. They could pay the same salaries in Daejeon or elsewhere and salaries would go a lot farther there.
The exodus from Seoul will probably start when people realize that Seoul is highly overrated and when corporations realize land prices peaked, sell and move their HQs out of the city (or at least I hope). I know a few IT companies that have already moved to Bundang for starters. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:57 am Post subject: |
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I remember having a rant about this subject a few months back.
One major problem is the lack of express lines. Downtown Seoul needs express stations, but doesn't have them.
It happens in NY too. Sometimes the bus driver is a jerk, and they don't want too many passengers (for some weird reason) so they deliberately go "a little too fast" and they get an empty bus. They aren't paid per passenger- but maybe they should be. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| Tokyo and Osaka are 200 miles away from each other-it's pretty safe to say they're two independent metro areas. Korea we're talking about a SINGLE metro area holding nearly half the population. The infrastructure can't take anymore strain. The population HAS TO go down. Moving a bunch of government agencies to Sejong is a good start. I for one would much rather live in Daejeon or elsewhere and commute to my job in Seoul (or elsewhere) if I could do it within an hour. But of course this is impossible at present, so I guess I'll just have to settle for Bundang. |
Japan is almost 4x the size of South Korean and 2x the Korean peninsula. Although I don't see a second city coming close to Seoul's size even in an hypothetical united Korea. Seoul's central location just makes it a black-hole to Korea.
Anyways, Seoul will always be the cultural and business center of Korea. You can move as many government agencies out of the capital as you want, but almost every single 20-something Korean will want to live in Seoul for at least a portion of their young lives.
It's like any huge mega-city, people just will flock there. Just like that pretty girl from Alabama who goes to LA because she wants to be an actress. There are thousands just like her. You're seeing the same patterns in other Asian countries. Usually one, maybe two (or like 5 in China's case), historic cultural and business city will take the vast majority of the country's population. |
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rickpidero
Joined: 03 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I get annoyed too. But, the entire system is pretty dang good. One of the top in the world. Can we really expect better? |
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Kimchifart
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
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BREAKING NEWS.....
Buses and trains in none at all, then three come along at once shocker. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ThingsComeAround wrote: |
I remember having a rant about this subject a few months back.
One major problem is the lack of express lines. Downtown Seoul needs express stations, but doesn't have them.
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Yeah, this too. Line 9 has express trains but the express trains don't have independent tracks so the local trains always get delayed. Terrible planning on their part. Don't they have express trains on Line 1 though (well at least in Gyeonggi/Incheon)?
I think they need something like Metro-North in NY going out to the suburbs. It'll probably relieve some of the congestion on the freeways which btw need to be wider. You have 4 large suburban developments on the Gyeongbu Expressway (Pangyo, Bundang, Gwanggyo, Dongtan). A recipe for complete traffic disaster. That freeway wasn't designed to handle that kind of traffic-there shouldn't have been that many developments using that one freeway in the first place, or they need to go all LA and expand the Gyeongbu Expressway to 10 lanes each way. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how many of these people ranting about the size of Seoul believe in Cohiba's Rule.
I wonder how many of these people wondering why there are so many people in Seoul either live in Seoul or visit Seoul on a regular basis.
I wonder how many of these people wondering about these things lived in a small town back home. Subways get delayed? Buses aren't always on time? Traffic gets jammed? Public transportation is of mediocre quality? Gee, whoda thunk it.
As for subways, so we want subways come hurtling in, one after the other, every 30 seconds? Doesn't that sound like a recipe for disaster?
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
Its a simple idea really...
Have the buses and trains run at consistent intervals. That way, you won't have a bus or train packed full of people, while the one right behind it is empty.
SHOCK! |
Did you really expect Korean government workers not to make simple things super complicated? These people will turn 1+1 into a complicated mess of bureaucracy, red tape, incompetence and corruption. |
Running things at regular intervals may seem like a great idea on paper, but in practice is likely to result in the very bottleknecks that one is trying to get.
I'm guessing that all of this is modeled based of data from traffic patterns and customer fares and such. You know the way real businesses operate, not the rantings of someone fresh out of college.
You're dealing with something that by its nature will have imperfections. |
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daeguowl
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of things:
1. The route show has the buses approaching Express Bus Terminal, which I would call a traffic hotspot. It's highly possible that they bunch up approaching a junction and then make up ground once they clear through it. This is definitely true about buses passing through Youngdungpo.
2. The route and the bus is the same but the drivers are different. Some drive faster than others.
3. The drivers have a gadget which displays the gap between them and the bus in front and behind in both minutes and km. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'm guessing that all of this is modeled based of data from traffic patterns and customer fares and such. You know the way real businesses operate, not the rantings of someone fresh out of college.
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Please, enlighten me on how real businesses operate. |
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