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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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 Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
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But had taken a very long time (i.e. longer than the relevant lifespan of an iphone) to hack as opposed to mac address security, which is basically "lets hope no one tries to hack it"
I had low cost solutions that made the system better. If you're gonna argue with that, you have reading comprehension issues. I can go line by line if you'd like. |
You have no idea what the cost would be to implement this, unless you care to actually share a cost study with us?
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I have a computer science minor. I know for a fact that the cost involved in having a server updating a database on another server is negligible.
Care to explain how it would be expensive?
| alongway wrote: |
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| More people want to hack their [device] to play homebrew than to crack an IMEI. |
And very few of them are competent enough to. A criminal organization would hire an expert and have it done quickly. Financial motive is much stronger than the motive of a few bored teenagers.
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Do you know how devices get hacked? People use them and find glitches. After the glitches are found, hackers find ways to exploit the glitches to run unsigned code. For the firmware/os, this happens regularly due to the sheer number of users, which tend to find glitches after awhile. If an IMEI is anything like a MAC address, its specific to the network adapter, not the phone's os/firmware. Since not too many people play around with adapter settings and are less willing to report glitches, the adapter becomes harder to hack based on user reports.
| alongway wrote: |
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| In what world is notification = policing? |
They become the authority on stolen goods and it's operation around the world. Sounds like police work to me.
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Police work requires enforcement. Something Apple would not be doing here. They would simply be following customers' requests.
| alongway wrote: |
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Customer satisfaction is motivation. An advantage over your competition is motivation. Again with the poor reading comprehension.
Also, why is "financial compensation" the only reason for people do do things? |
There is no evidence that customers are asking for this in any significant amount unless you'd care to share some customer satisfaction surveys you've been doing?
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Do I need to do surveys to realize people don't want their phones stolen?
| alongway wrote: |
Businesses who make money tend to do things to help them make more money. Every decision is weighed on a cost vs return model. Unless a sick kid with cancer in a wheel chair asks Apple to do this they're unlikely to stray from that model.
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No argument from me here.
| alongway wrote: |
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| No it isn't. Every contract to carry iphones could include a section requiring IMEI enforcement. Since some carriers do it, its not a stretch to say that it's an affordable system. It doesn't matter what they like or don't like; Apple has proven that they can thrive on unpopular carriers. |
And yet you fail to address countries who don't want to play ball or who want further evidence, and now you're saying every country in the world needs to get on board with apple's plan. All because you can't take personal responsibility for the safety of your purchase?
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Yet another comprehension fail. It's not an issue of personal responsibility. Of course it's my job to take care of my phone. It's also irrelevant to my point: that Apple can do more.
| alongway wrote: |
It kind of reminds me of that lightbulb joke. How many Akcronos does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Just 1, he holds it up and the world spins around him.
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How about this one:
How many alongtheways does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
5
One to read the directions.
One to check the reading comprehension.
One to screw in the bulb.
One to screw the bulb in the other way because the directions were read wrong.
And one to complain that the bulb wasn't taking any personal responsibility by screwing itself in.
| alongway wrote: |
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| No it's not clear. I've never said nor implied that. I just said they could do more, and that there were benefits to doing it. If you think that's saying I don't have any responsibility, you need help. |
It doesn't sound like you want to take any. All the tools exist to protect your purchase provided free of charge. You just don't want to handle them. You can call the carrier yourself and ask them to blacklist the IMEI, but you want apple to set up an entire network with hundreds of carriers around the world to do it for you.
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I never said I didn't want to handle them. I just want the tools to be better. That comprehension again.
Should I call hundreds of carriers myself, or have Apple do it at a very low expense.
| alongway wrote: |
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| Holy reading comprehension. You really can't discern a comparison between mechanics and actual issues? I NEVER said cancer and losing a phone are the same. I said bad things happen (i.e. dying of sickness and lost phones), and that when people CAN fix bad things, they prefer to. |
Face it, your cancer example was terrible, and really out of place. Doing something about Cancer and doing something about stolen phones are on two entirely different levels and philosophies. We do something about Cancer because it ends lives. The only lives a stolen phone ends is a 12 year old girl's.
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Face it, the example was good and you refuse to admit it. It's hyperbole used to demonstrate my point in the extreme. You don't even address the fact that people prefer to change bad things. You just misdirect by pretending not to understand it or fail at reading comprehension.
| alongway wrote: |
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| Not before the next version came out (in iphone iterations). Hence the term "practically", which is not contrary to eventually "hacked". |
Face it, you didn't do your homework. Try and excuse it away all you want.
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Another argument with no supporting information.
It was unhacked for almost 2 years. That's longer than it takes for the newest iphone to come out. Face it, that would always make the newest iphone's IMEI unhackable. Try to make that irrelevant all you want, it still supports my position.
Try giving a valid reason why the pspgo example isn't relevant.
| alongway wrote: |
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| Real chips that do exist, Apple reporting to carriers, and a DE-registration system that I've never seen from other companies (because they don't care about aftermarket sales). |
You haven't given us any real chips that exist, only devices which have been hacked.
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Hacked long after a newer version would come out.
| alongway wrote: |
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A fake registration server wouldn't affect people who do due diligence, as they would be able to check it THEMSELVES, which is the whole point. |
From their point of view it would look identical. in fact as far as thieves go this would be a great bit of social engineering. Someone steals some phones sets up a fake registration server to emulate apple, and then proceeds to sell the phones. Knowing people will attempt to register the phone right away they use the emulated on the modified iphone to capture their apple password, which for most people is often the same password and email they use for everything and begin to steal everything related to that person. Yes, what an incredible system. Nothing could ever go wrong with that.
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Is that reading comprehension fail #7? Again, the DE-registration system would be for the BUYER, not the seller. The BUYER would check the iphone on his own computer and determine for himself the status of the iphone.
| alongway wrote: |
I hate to break it to you but digital locks often cause far more trouble for legitimate users than they do pirates or thieves.
So after all this time we still have:
1. Apple in charge of policing stolen iphones around the world. With no explanation about how they interact with hundreds of carriers, hostile/indifferent nations |
Comprehension fail #8. They are in charge of taking user requests to blacklist phones and forwarding the IMEI to all capable carriers. I explained how that's done: by Apple servers updating IMEI blacklists on carrier servers.
Comprehension fail #9: policing involves enforcement, something Apple is not doing in this scenario.
| alongway wrote: |
2. unhackable, well difficult to hack imei chips based on the idea that a few bored teenagers are the best the world could throw at hacking something.. this isn't a disney movie.
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See above.
| alongway wrote: |
3. A system ripe for social engineering where the tech does actually already exist to turn this into a nightmare.
Fantastically constructive ideas. I don't know why I ever questioned them.
Good luck with that. I'm sure Apple will rush to implement this as soon as you pitch it to them. |
It is constructive. Simply replacing the IMEI with a better system combined with global reporting would cut down on motivation for the average person to steal an iphone at a low cost. Period.
As i said in my first post, the reason they wouldn't do it is beause they have no interest in strengthening the 2nd hand market. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| akcrono wrote: |
As i said in my first post, the reason they wouldn't do it is beause they have no interest in strengthening the 2nd hand market. |
Herein lies the fault in your reasoning.
How does Apple giving away phones practically for free to people who have their phones lost/stolen help them?
The reason they won't do it is because the sheer logistics and cost of such a system would be too great.
Can you get that through your head? The logistics and cost of such a system would be too great. Say it 1000x's everyday. The logistics and cost of such a system would be too great.
It is cheaper and easier for Apple to give you a replacement phone for a fraction of the cost of a new one. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| akcrono wrote: |
As i said in my first post, the reason they wouldn't do it is beause they have no interest in strengthening the 2nd hand market. |
Herein lies the fault in your reasoning.
How does Apple giving away phones practically for free to people who have their phones lost/stolen help them?
The reason they won't do it is because the sheer logistics and cost of such a system would be too great.
Can you get that through your head? The logistics and cost of such a system would be too great. Say it 1000x's everyday. The logistics and cost of such a system would be too great.
It is cheaper and easier for Apple to give you a replacement phone for a fraction of the cost of a new one. |
I assume you know nothing about databases, but it's not expensive to update a database.
Can you get that through your head?
Evidence points to the reason they don't do it: because they don't want to support a 2nd hand market. |
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dazzed
Joined: 26 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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All this argument is moot. All these comments are coulda shoulda woulda statements. You guys can B**** and moan what apple and carriers should do. It won't change the fact they're not going to do what you think you want the companies to do. Why not hold your breath til they do if it makes you feel better.
Here's a good advice, DON"T DROP YOUR DAMN PHONE. and of course don't LOSE your damn phone too. |
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wuzza
Joined: 02 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| If this thread was called "why doesn't Samsung do more about stolen Galaxies?" then the criticism of the ideas akcrono put forward would at least be a lot more constructive. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| dazzed wrote: |
All this argument is moot. All these comments are coulda shoulda woulda statements. You guys can B**** and moan what apple and carriers should do. It won't change the fact they're not going to do what you think you want the companies to do. Why not hold your breath til they do if it makes you feel better.
Here's a good advice, DON"T DROP YOUR DAMN PHONE. and of course don't LOSE your damn phone too. |
Isn't the point of a discussion forum for discussions? It's not any less useful than a lot of forum posts on this or any forum.
Also, obvious information isn't really good advice. |
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