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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| The entire developed world considers Jan 1st to be New Year's Day |
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| Because there are 2 New Year's Days, the author wanted the distinction to be certain. |
So is there 1 New Year's or 2? Is it regarded that way universally?
And Lunar New Year is not called "New Year's Day". It's called Lunar New Year. There's would be no confusion if the term New Year's Day was used.
The reason the term "proper" was used was an attempt by the OP to build the morality of their case up. "Since I celebrate proper New Year's, I must be right."
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| epends on the religion, since we're not referring to a specific day in the name of the holiday. |
Uncle Scrooge: "You there, what day is it?"
Urchin: "Why it's Christmas Day sir."
Christmas Day. New Year's Day.
Seems the same to me.
But to call it proper Christmas would be wrong.
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| And yet they never use it when they write dates or make plans. Knowledge does not equal use. I know some calculus, but I never use it. |
They use it for horoscopes, fortune telling, ceremonies, and religious events.
Just because its not used for banking transactions doesn't mean it's not used.
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| But I've explained why it shouldn't, and you haven't given me a reason why it should; you just bring up unrelated holidays. |
It should be considered arrogant and rude because to call something proper infers that the other practice is improper.
Again, why not just use the term that has no confusion- New Year's Day.
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| Both are fine. In my opinion, official is a better adjective. I still think proper is fine and unoffensive. |
If an American said that they play "proper football", that's being deliberately insulting to people who play soccer. If someone says they play "proper violin" that's being insulting to people who play country fiddle.
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| If they use the Gregorian calender, I'd have no problem mentioning it in conversation. |
So you would tell a Muslim that the start of Ramadan is not the proper start of the New Year?
And we wonder why they hate us....
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| It can be tricky, but if you notice a pattern in one country that's not present in another country, oftentimes its due to a cultural difference. I see fewer salaried employees get weekend holidays off than I did in the US. |
I see more salaried employees get added on "travel days" before and after holidays in the midweek than in the U.S. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The entire developed world considers Jan 1st to be New Year's Day |
| Quote: |
| Because there are 2 New Year's Days, the author wanted the distinction to be certain. |
So is there 1 New Year's or 2? Is it regarded that way universally?
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There is one new years day, and 2 holidays with "New Year's" in the title. Jan 1st is universally regarded as the beginning of the year for everything official.
| Steelrails wrote: |
And Lunar New Year is not called "New Year's Day". It's called Lunar New Year. There's would be no confusion if the term New Year's Day was used.
The reason the term "proper" was used was an attempt by the OP to build the morality of their case up. "Since I celebrate proper New Year's, I must be right."
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Only you saw it that way. I saw it as him making the distinction between the two days clear.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| epends on the religion, since we're not referring to a specific day in the name of the holiday. |
Uncle Scrooge: "You there, what day is it?"
Urchin: "Why it's Christmas Day sir."
Christmas Day. New Year's Day.
Seems the same to me.
But to call it proper Christmas would be wrong.
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It's not the same. "New Year's" specifically has the time it's celebrated in the title. Someone who knew nothing about holidays wouldn't be able to tell what day Christmas is on based on the name alone, but they could tell which day was New Year's.
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| But I've explained why it shouldn't, and you haven't given me a reason why it should; you just bring up unrelated holidays. |
It should be considered arrogant and rude because to call something proper infers that the other practice is improper.
Again, why not just use the term that has no confusion- New Year's Day.
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Only if one chooses to infer that it's improper. "What are you doing for New Year's?" would be an ambiguous question in Korea. That's why we use extra adjectives to tell them apart. Proper isn't the best, but by definition it's appropriate.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Both are fine. In my opinion, official is a better adjective. I still think proper is fine and unoffensive. |
If an American said that they play "proper football", that's being deliberately insulting to people who play soccer. If someone says they play "proper violin" that's being insulting to people who play country fiddle.
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First one is true. I think "proper violin" makes a clear distinction between violin and fiddle. Probably not to many fiddlers who call themselves violinists. They play "proper fiddle".
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| If they use the Gregorian calender, I'd have no problem mentioning it in conversation. |
So you would tell a Muslim that the start of Ramadan is not the proper start of the New Year?
And we wonder why they hate us....
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Didn't say that. I said I'd tell them the official New Year's Day is Jan 1st if it came up in conversation. I would not call Ramadan improper. Don't put words in my mouth.
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| It can be tricky, but if you notice a pattern in one country that's not present in another country, oftentimes its due to a cultural difference. I see fewer salaried employees get weekend holidays off than I did in the US. |
I see more salaried employees get added on "travel days" before and after holidays in the midweek than in the U.S. |
But I think they get more holidays off in the US.
Look, if people are offended with the word proper, then they are offended by the distinction that their holiday does not fall on the 1st of Jan. The definition of proper is clear, and in this case it fits, since it is referring to a very specific thing. "Proper" does not convey the message that their holiday is wrong, unimportant, or anything negative like that. It is simply used to show which one falls on the 1st. If people get offended by that, then they should also be offended that there is a New Year's holiday that actually falls on the 1st. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope, the term "proper" puts me off as well. It would also be along the lines of "real". |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Dude...
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| Someone who knew nothing about holidays wouldn't be able to tell what day Christmas is on based on the name alone, but they could tell which day was New Year's |
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Only you saw it that way. I saw it as him making the distinction between the two days clear.
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Look, either its clear which is which or its not clear and you need to make a distinction.
Of course the problem is, that if you need to make a distinction, as part of you believes, then using the term "proper" is poor form, as the example of "Proper Christmas" indicates.
Now if you do not need to make a distinction, then the simple term New Year's or New Year's Day is sufficient, and the term proper has no use beyond placing a value judgment on the legitimacy of the holiday.
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| There is one new years day, and 2 holidays with "New Year's" in the title |
Then why not use the term New Year's Day? And if as you said...
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| Someone who knew nothing about holidays wouldn't be able to tell what day Christmas is on based on the name alone, but they could tell which day was New Year's. |
...then you don't need to clarify with "proper".
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Jan 1st is universally regarded as the beginning of the year for everything official.
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You know in some nations, because something is "official" doesn't mean its more signifacnt or more important. Many people regard their spiritual calenders as being as or more significant. They might consider their day more "proper".
Rosh Hashanah and Ramadan are official holidays. They are regarded as the start of the New Year for followers of their faith. It's a very fine line and I think the term proper is inappropriate for so fine a line, especially when it concerns the religion and heritage of at least 3 billion people in the world.
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I think "proper violin" makes a clear distinction between violin and fiddle. Probably not to many fiddlers who call themselves violinists. They play "proper fiddle".
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If someone said that there was a school talent show and that someone played bluegrass fiddle and then a person said that they came on and played "proper violin" that would certainly smack of arrogance and insult.
You do realize that other people speak English as well and understand the context of the word "proper" and how it is frequently used to denote something being higher in class and more legitimate.
And besides, the "proper" term is Classical Violinst. or Classically Trained. Same with New Year's Day, not Proper New Year's.
If we are going to trumpet how official something is, well then use the official name.
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| If people get offended by that, then they should also be offended that there is a New Year's holiday that actually falls on the 1st. |
I don't find the term "New Year's Day" offensive. I find the term "Proper New Year's" offensive. It's not the date, it's the value judgment found in the word "proper". Again, why not just say "New Year's Day"? It's that simple. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Nope, the term "proper" puts me off as well. It would also be along the lines of "real". |
Not according the the definition. It would be more along the lines of "actual", which it is. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| akcrono wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Nope, the term "proper" puts me off as well. It would also be along the lines of "real". |
Not according the the definition. It would be more along the lines of "actual", which it is. |
But again, would it not depend on which calendar/system you use? In my home, the Lunar calendar is used for many things. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Dude...
| Quote: |
| Someone who knew nothing about holidays wouldn't be able to tell what day Christmas is on based on the name alone, but they could tell which day was New Year's |
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Only you saw it that way. I saw it as him making the distinction between the two days clear.
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Look, either its clear which is which or its not clear and you need to make a distinction.
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It's both. It's clear which day "New Year's Day" is, but since there are 2 holidays with "New Year's" in the title, there actually needs to be a qualifier to determine which one you're talking about.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Of course the problem is, that if you need to make a distinction, as part of you believes, then using the term "proper" is poor form, as the example of "Proper Christmas" indicates.
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Because saying "proper Christmas" refers to the idea that there is only one actual Christmas, which there isn't. New Year's is different, because there is no ambiguity about which day is the first of the year.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Now if you do not need to make a distinction, then the simple term New Year's or New Year's Day is sufficient, and the term proper has no use beyond placing a value judgment on the legitimacy of the holiday.
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Go ask what some people plan to do for "New Year's" next year. They probably won't all refer to the same day. You need a qualifier.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There is one new years day, and 2 holidays with "New Year's" in the title |
Then why not use the term New Year's Day? And if as you said...
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| Someone who knew nothing about holidays wouldn't be able to tell what day Christmas is on based on the name alone, but they could tell which day was New Year's. |
...then you don't need to clarify with "proper".
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You do if there are 2 holidays called "New Year's"
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Jan 1st is universally regarded as the beginning of the year for everything official.
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You know in some nations, because something is "official" doesn't mean its more signifacnt or more important. Many people regard their spiritual calenders as being as or more significant. They might consider their day more "proper".
Rosh Hashanah and Ramadan are official holidays. They are regarded as the start of the New Year for followers of their faith. It's a very fine line and I think the term proper is inappropriate for so fine a line, especially when it concerns the religion and heritage of at least 3 billion people in the world.
| Quote: |
I think "proper violin" makes a clear distinction between violin and fiddle. Probably not to many fiddlers who call themselves violinists. They play "proper fiddle".
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If someone said that there was a school talent show and that someone played bluegrass fiddle and then a person said that they came on and played "proper violin" that would certainly smack of arrogance and insult.
You do realize that other people speak English as well and understand the context of the word "proper" and how it is frequently used to denote something being higher in class and more legitimate.
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I don't know about any usage for higher class or legitimate. The definition doesn't have it either. maybe its those people who are using "proper" improperly. Proper is used for accuracy or correctness, or to refer to a specific thing.
| Steelrails wrote: |
And besides, the "proper" term is Classical Violinst. or Classically Trained. Same with New Year's Day, not Proper New Year's.
If we are going to trumpet how official something is, well then use the official name.
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And for the 1,000th time, the official name can be ambiguous in this country.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If people get offended by that, then they should also be offended that there is a New Year's holiday that actually falls on the 1st. |
I don't find the term "New Year's Day" offensive. I find the term "Proper New Year's" offensive. It's not the date, it's the value judgment found in the word "proper". Again, why not just say "New Year's Day"? It's that simple. |
You're adding the value judgement.
How many times are you going to suggest using "New Year's Day"? It can be an ambiguous term here.
Which ones do you find offensive?
Proper
Actual
Real
Official
Accurate
By your logic, all of these are offensive because they imply that Lunar New Year is:
improper
Not actual
Fake
Unofficial
Inaccurate |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Right... so why use any of them? I don't see the need.
I've used
Lunar New Year or even Chinese New Year (before moving to Asia). |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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"Gregorian," if you actually need the proper adjective.
Lunar New Year
Gregorian New Year |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
"Gregorian," if you actually need the proper adjective.
Lunar New Year
Gregorian New Year |
I feel there's enough people who don't know what that is.
I also feel there are much more important things to be upset/offended about than using proper to define Jan 1st. |
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Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:46 am Post subject: |
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OK, I think we have ridden this horse long enough.
Koharski |
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