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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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 Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Are any Korean politicians clean? |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I have a feeling if you hung everyone guilty of corruption, in any country, you'd end up with A LOT of bodies. Corruption hinders commerce and whatnot. IT also makes it go sometimes.
How exactly has Korean corruption affected you to such a point that you want to see people hung? Is this actually about improving the economy or is this a bunch of boiled up spite and rage?
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Singapore is SOOOO corrupt, and that's why they're doing so well, right? Corruption doesn't add value. Period. It does more harm than good. Period. And it needs to be uprooted.  I'll trust an ambulance chasing lawyer or used car dealer before I trust a politician.
Northern Europe and Canada are so corrupt and that's why they're some of the healthiest economies in the world, right? The EU members that are failing are some of the more corrupt ones. They also have more fragile economies. Think about that.
I'm just about 100% sure if China were as transparent as even the US Korea and the surrounding countries would have gone belly up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Northern Europe and Canada are so corrupt and that's why they're some of the healthiest economies in the world, right? |
I think that has more to do with sound monetary policy and sensible trade policies as well as lingering wealth and technology from invading other nations, stripping their countries of resources, and the technological advancements made possible by centuries of competitive warfare (As well as innovation, Enlightenment, work-ethic, creativity, etc- But you have to take the bad with the good).
And lets face it their health, and the health of the U.S., Korea, China, pretty much everyone is in perilous times considering the whole Eurozone fiasco. Also, those countries often engage in legal corruption in the form of lobbying or Ivory Tower cliques.
| Quote: |
| Corruption doesn't add value. Period. It does more harm than good. Period. |
Which is why the U.S. economy lagged behind that of Europe during its period of Robber Barons, right?
I agree that corruption is a major barriers, but it is often necessary when a country transitions from say, an agrarian one into an industrial one. Perhaps necessary is the wrong word, it just comes with the whole deal.
In order to make oneself competitive sometimes nations that are not viewed as special have to give "special" deals to companies to set ups hop or purchase goods from them.
This still doesn't excuse your barbaric and bigoted notion that this place would have been better off under Colonialization nor that mass hangings of CEOs would have a positive effect.
Sometimes the corrupt people are also the most skilled or have the connections to get things done. The phrase "He may be a SOB, but he's our SOB" comes to mind.
Please tell me how your Reign of Terror ends. Please tell me how it doesn't spiral out of control and have the country descend into chaos. Please tell me how breaking up the cheabols and the resulting financial fiasco would be good for Korea. So your answer to people in power being corrupt, is to have the people in power attempt to have people executed? Do you not see the folly in that?
Like I said, I don't think you have the best interests of the people at heart, rather this is some sort of punitive, Ahabian rant.
Gradual change and gradual punitive measures and incentives against corruption would be best in my opinion. Make sure that Samsung or Hanjin don't go belly up and suddenly unemploy hundreds of thousands.
Again, how is the corruption hurting you? You probably have a job here because of corruption. The fact is that the version of Corruption here has produced a country far more enjoyable than an idealistically pure vision. |
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Joe Boxer
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Location: Bundang, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| I personally don't care how much of a contribution LG and Samsung have made to the economy, illegal is illegal. As such they need to be fined into bankruptcy court. Something like 300 times their market cap. Heck, if they could break up one of the Chaebols to make an example out of them, all the better. And make sure to throw the CEO's in prison for life. |
Ever hear of the expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? |
I think it would be like cutting off your cancerous nose to save your face. |
So the whole thing about unemploying hundreds of thousands of people who used to work for the chaebols and collapsing the nation's economy is what exactly? |
Please, enough with the drama. motiontodismiss suggested big fines and perhaps breaking-up a chaebol. I suggested REAL jail time for corrupt CEOs.
Do you really think that those measures would be enough to cause the unemployment of "hundreds of thousands of people" and collapse the nation's economy? |
Except that wasn't what was suggested. It wasn't just big fines, it was fines into bankruptcy. |
You're right. I missed that. |
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mdunn
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: No corruption in Singapore? |
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http://www.singapore-window.org/sw06/060118ft.htm
It's a benevolent dictator in Singapore, that's about it. And Korea is emulating that country in more than one way. It's scary.
If a progressive isn't elected in this year, this country's in trouble. It'll be like China here in no time. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| I personally don't care how much of a contribution LG and Samsung have made to the economy, illegal is illegal. As such they need to be fined into bankruptcy court. Something like 300 times their market cap. Heck, if they could break up one of the Chaebols to make an example out of them, all the better. And make sure to throw the CEO's in prison for life. |
Ever hear of the expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? |
Perhaps 300 times the market cap is a little extreme, but the fines need to be at least greater than the amount of the illicit profits. This and restitution. |
And not making the crooked CEOs poster children for Olympic bids. |
Yeah that too. Evidently an insider-trading government official-bribing tax cheat is the best Korea has to offer |
The worst part is that it works for them! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung#Olympics
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Samsung was instrumental in bringing the 2018 Winter Olympics to Pyeongchang. In December 2009, the former chairman of Samsung, Lee Kun-hee, was pardoned in order that he could return to the International Olympics Committee and help South Korea bid for the 2018 Winter Olympics in Pyeongchang. He had previously been convicted of tax evasion in 2008 and had been part of two failed bids to bring the Olympics to South Korea. [58]
During this bid, Lee Kun-hee and figure skating gold medalist Kim Yuna lobbied heavily for support; it was thought that Lee's influence would help to secure the bid. On July 6 2011, it was announced that Pyeongchang would be the location of the 2018 Winter Games. [59] Samsung C&T Corporation will be among the top tier of firms competing for construction projects for the games. [60]
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Looks like Lee Kun-hee just keeps winning. |
I agree it's working for them so far. In a big way.
Corruption is a form of cheating. And cheating can bring positive results if the cheaters aren't caught or held accountable.
Think about a business deal. One side is honest and the other side lies and steals but nobody calls them on it. In the absence of any real punishment or consequence, which side has the advantage?
(I'm not advocating anything, just setting up an example)
Now some might say, "But company X from country X did that too once!" Ok, yeah it happens, but that's just the equivalent of saying "Hey, look over there!" |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Singapore once had a lot of corruption, and it dealt firmly with corruption. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't Singapore somewhat Confucian? |
True enough.
However, the basic foundation of modern Singapore is intricately related to an acute awareness of driving out Western hegemony/weak-principled collaborators in the region and building an independant country from the ground up during the post WWII era.
In other words, modern Singapore was very much built by and functions for independance-minded Singaporeans.
Modern South Korea was built by and still functions very much in the interests of those who collaborated with the US before, during, and after the Korean War. Those in charge and in power are the ones involved in the corruption. At most they'll get a slap on the wrist to preserve the illusion that this is actually a democracy. |
... However, it's important to reduce corruption in order to inspire confidence in both Korean and foreign shareholders and the global investment community. It won't impress investors when they read of such corruption. Corruption hurts a country.
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Well, so far there haven't been that many repercussions for corruption. Despite hiring convicted yet pardoned crooks to head up the olympics bidding council, they still won the bid. It's like there wasn't even a scandal. If anything, you'd think that would count them out but it didn't.
People are still doing business with them so apparently nobody cares. What has been done about it exactly? Has anyone besides that New Zealand company actually done anything in protest? I guess time will tell.
Corruption goes hand in hand with unfair and unscrupulous business practices and this can affect business relations. I met some European business owners once who said "We never do business with Korean companies. They screw you!" I just wonder how widespread that mindset is. Nothing will change unless people start backing out of deals en masse or the crooks actually get punished. |
It keeps some foreign investment away and it creates a discount for Korean stocks due to the lack of transparency and corporate governance. So somebody does care. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Northern Europe and Canada are so corrupt and that's why they're some of the healthiest economies in the world, right? |
I think that has more to do with sound monetary policy and sensible trade policies as well as lingering wealth and technology from invading other nations, stripping their countries of resources, and the technological advancements made possible by centuries of competitive warfare (As well as innovation, Enlightenment, work-ethic, creativity, etc- But you have to take the bad with the good).
And lets face it their health, and the health of the U.S., Korea, China, pretty much everyone is in perilous times considering the whole Eurozone fiasco. Also, those countries often engage in legal corruption in the form of lobbying or Ivory Tower cliques.
| Quote: |
| Corruption doesn't add value. Period. It does more harm than good. Period. |
I agree that corruption is a major barriers, but it is often necessary when a country transitions from say, an agrarian one into an industrial one. Perhaps necessary is the wrong word, it just comes with the whole deal.
Sometimes the corrupt people are also the most skilled or have the connections to get things done. The phrase "He may be a SOB, but he's our SOB" comes to mind.
Gradual change and gradual punitive measures and incentives against corruption would be best in my opinion. Make sure that Samsung or Hanjin don't go belly up and suddenly unemploy hundreds of thousands.
Again, how is the corruption hurting you? You probably have a job here because of corruption. The fact is that the version of Corruption here has produced a country far more enjoyable than an idealistically pure vision. |
Please show how corruption is "necessary" for transitioning from an agrarian to an industrial economy. Please show how someone has a job here because of corruption. And please substantiate the "fact" that a corrupt country is far more enjoyable (whatever that may actually mean) than one based on idealism |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Are any Korean politicians clean? |
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| Quote: |
| We're probably looking at another Greece or Argentina or something here in the next 20 years. |
Maybe, but I should point out that in 20 years England, France, and the USA may very well be every bit an economic basketcase as Greece.[/quote]
Two predictions, which, unless the entire global economy crashes, have no chance of becoming reality. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: The sleaze that shames Seoul |
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| Stout wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plato's republic wrote: |
| Park Geun-hye, a leading contender for the presidency - Lee Myung-bak's successor will be elected on December 19 this year... |
I'm counting on her to make things better here in Korea. |
Don't hold your breath. |
Don't hold your breath is right.
If anyone really thinks this is a democracy, where the power resides in the views and wishes of the people, u've got a very vivid imagination. |
Needs another 'seconded'. I'll add a caveat the Korea is no more corrupt than most Western Countries, especially America (sorry Americans)
Only Northern European countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark) make Korea look shameful. Most countries are corrupt, just in different ways. History is written by the victor and the real terrorists get to call ordinary people terrorists. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: The sleaze that shames Seoul |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plato's republic wrote: |
| Park Geun-hye, a leading contender for the presidency - Lee Myung-bak's successor will be elected on December 19 this year... |
I'm counting on her to make things better here in Korea. |
Don't hold your breath. |
Don't hold your breath is right.
If anyone really thinks this is a democracy, where the power resides in the views and wishes of the people, u've got a very vivid imagination. |
Needs another 'seconded'. I'll add a caveat the Korea is no more corrupt than most Western Countries, especially America (sorry Americans)
Only Northern European countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark) make Korea look shameful. Most countries are corrupt, just in different ways. History is written by the victor and the real terrorists get to call ordinary people terrorists. |
As for the U.S. and corruption, I'd guess it depends on how you define corruption. As someone who bid and won (and lost) government contracts, my experience is that the process was transparent and fair.
One big difference is that when there is corruption in the U.S., there are consequences. For example, Randy Cunnngham, war hero and all, got 10 years in prison. Look at what happened to Boeing. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: The sleaze that shames Seoul |
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| atwood wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plato's republic wrote: |
| Park Geun-hye, a leading contender for the presidency - Lee Myung-bak's successor will be elected on December 19 this year... |
I'm counting on her to make things better here in Korea. |
Don't hold your breath. |
Don't hold your breath is right.
If anyone really thinks this is a democracy, where the power resides in the views and wishes of the people, u've got a very vivid imagination. |
Needs another 'seconded'. I'll add a caveat the Korea is no more corrupt than most Western Countries, especially America (sorry Americans)
Only Northern European countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark) make Korea look shameful. Most countries are corrupt, just in different ways. History is written by the victor and the real terrorists get to call ordinary people terrorists. |
As for the U.S. and corruption, I'd guess it depends on how you define corruption. As someone who bid and won (and lost) government contracts, my experience is that the process was transparent and fair.
One big difference is that when there is corruption in the U.S., there are consequences. For example, Randy Cunnngham, war hero and all, got 10 years in prison. Look at what happened to Boeing. |
You mean like Richard Nixon and Scooter Libby? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: Re: The sleaze that shames Seoul |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plato's republic wrote: |
| Park Geun-hye, a leading contender for the presidency - Lee Myung-bak's successor will be elected on December 19 this year... |
I'm counting on her to make things better here in Korea. |
Don't hold your breath. |
Don't hold your breath is right.
If anyone really thinks this is a democracy, where the power resides in the views and wishes of the people, u've got a very vivid imagination. |
Needs another 'seconded'. I'll add a caveat the Korea is no more corrupt than most Western Countries, especially America (sorry Americans)
Only Northern European countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark) make Korea look shameful. Most countries are corrupt, just in different ways. History is written by the victor and the real terrorists get to call ordinary people terrorists. |
As for the U.S. and corruption, I'd guess it depends on how you define corruption. As someone who bid and won (and lost) government contracts, my experience is that the process was transparent and fair.
One big difference is that when there is corruption in the U.S., there are consequences. For example, Randy Cunnngham, war hero and all, got 10 years in prison. Look at what happened to Boeing. |
You mean like Richard Nixon and Scooter Libby? |
Being forced to resign from the presidency and live with that ignominy isn't getting off lightly. Libby had to pay $250,000 in fines, do 400 hours of community service and was disbarred. His felony conviction remains on the record. I, and most would agree, think losing the ability to earn your livelihood in your chosen field is a real consequence.
Try again. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: The sleaze that shames Seoul |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plato's republic wrote: |
| Park Geun-hye, a leading contender for the presidency - Lee Myung-bak's successor will be elected on December 19 this year... |
I'm counting on her to make things better here in Korea. |
Don't hold your breath. |
Don't hold your breath is right.
If anyone really thinks this is a democracy, where the power resides in the views and wishes of the people, u've got a very vivid imagination. |
Needs another 'seconded'. I'll add a caveat the Korea is no more corrupt than most Western Countries, especially America (sorry Americans)
Only Northern European countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark) make Korea look shameful. Most countries are corrupt, just in different ways. History is written by the victor and the real terrorists get to call ordinary people terrorists. |
As for the U.S. and corruption, I'd guess it depends on how you define corruption. As someone who bid and won (and lost) government contracts, my experience is that the process was transparent and fair.
One big difference is that when there is corruption in the U.S., there are consequences. For example, Randy Cunnngham, war hero and all, got 10 years in prison. Look at what happened to Boeing. |
You mean like Richard Nixon and Scooter Libby? |
Being forced to resign from the presidency and live with that ignominy isn't getting off lightly. Libby had to pay $250,000 in fines, do 400 hours of community service and was disbarred. His felony conviction remains on the record. I, and most would agree, think losing the ability to earn your livelihood in your chosen field is a real consequence.
Try again. |
I think most people would agree that getting a Presidential Pardon, as is the case of both people, is getting off lightly.
Seriously, who looks at Nixon or Libby and says "Now that's a case of justice being served!"
How bout Iran-Contra? Marion Barry? Half the municipal governments in America?
You do realize that politics is all a game in the states, right?
You do realize that politics and power and deals are done in 5-Star restaurants (on the taxpayer nickel), not the mayor's office, right?
Or do you really believe everything happens like your textbooks say they should? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: The sleaze that shames Seoul |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| plato's republic wrote: |
| Park Geun-hye, a leading contender for the presidency - Lee Myung-bak's successor will be elected on December 19 this year... |
I'm counting on her to make things better here in Korea. |
Don't hold your breath. |
Don't hold your breath is right.
If anyone really thinks this is a democracy, where the power resides in the views and wishes of the people, u've got a very vivid imagination. |
Needs another 'seconded'. I'll add a caveat the Korea is no more corrupt than most Western Countries, especially America (sorry Americans)
Only Northern European countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark) make Korea look shameful. Most countries are corrupt, just in different ways. History is written by the victor and the real terrorists get to call ordinary people terrorists. |
As for the U.S. and corruption, I'd guess it depends on how you define corruption. As someone who bid and won (and lost) government contracts, my experience is that the process was transparent and fair.
One big difference is that when there is corruption in the U.S., there are consequences. For example, Randy Cunnngham, war hero and all, got 10 years in prison. Look at what happened to Boeing. |
You mean like Richard Nixon and Scooter Libby? |
Being forced to resign from the presidency and live with that ignominy isn't getting off lightly. Libby had to pay $250,000 in fines, do 400 hours of community service and was disbarred. His felony conviction remains on the record. I, and most would agree, think losing the ability to earn your livelihood in your chosen field is a real consequence.
Try again. |
I think most people would agree that getting a Presidential Pardon, as is the case of both people, is getting off lightly.
Seriously, who looks at Nixon or Libby and says "Now that's a case of justice being served!"
How bout Iran-Contra? Marion Barry? Half the municipal governments in America?
You do realize that politics is all a game in the states, right?
You do realize that politics and power and deals are done in 5-Star restaurants (on the taxpayer nickel), not the mayor's office, right?
Or do you really believe everything happens like your textbooks say they should? |
Not in the two cases you mention.
Marion Barry? An addict who did six months in prison? In Iran-Contra people got pardons but while many disagree many believe/d they were working in the service of their government and country. That's a case of taking care of your own. And you'd have to look at their post pardon careers to see what other consequences there were.
"Half the municipal governments in America" is just out and out nonsense.
Life is a game and politics is a part of life. And in the U.S., more times than not, when you break the rules you face the consequences.
Try again. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Life is a game and politics is a part of life. And in the U.S., more times than not, when you break the rules you face the consequences. |
Right because every time someone has been caught is every time that a crime has been committed.
May I ask why you believe that in the U.S. that more often than not if you are corrupt, you will be caught?
| Quote: |
| Marion Barry? An addict who did six months in prison? |
And came back as mayor.
You're probably the only person who thinks Nixon got the punishment he deserved. Same with Scooter Libby. |
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